Pedersoli Sharps Bullet Diameter

mlcasmey
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Pedersoli Sharps Bullet Diameter

Post by mlcasmey » Wed Aug 07, 2013 9:30 am

Has anyone out there experimented with using a .460 dia bullet. It seams that the largest molds Lyman and others make off the shelf are all .459 and the largest Lyman Lubesizer die is .459. This puts the bullet only .001 larger than the .458 groove diameter of the barrels. I know Buffalo Bullets will enlarge a .459 mold to .460 for a small fee, make a .460 expander and a .460 die for the Lyman Lubesizer. But will making the bullet .002 over groove diameter make a significant difference is spin stabilization and accuracy? I have the entire set of Long Range Sharps 45/70, 90, 120 and am making cast Lyman mold bullets from 1:20 lead and SPG lube.

Thanks.

Mike.

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Ranch 13
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Re: Pedersoli Sharps Bullet Diameter

Post by Ranch 13 » Wed Aug 07, 2013 10:39 am

the difference in diameter doesn't make much difference in the spin etc.. The larger diameter will slow down the leading in the throat, and thereby helping with the accuracy. At one time Pedersoli even had their own mould design that was produced by Victory moulds who are now out of business.
You might contact Old West Moulds in Fruita Co. I believe Bernie has a bullet that works well in the pedersoli chamber.

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Re: Pedersoli Sharps Bullet Diameter

Post by 45bpcr » Wed Aug 07, 2013 12:55 pm

This is what your looking for Mike.
pedersoli-gunn-trenk  526_gr_sketch.gif
pedersoli-gunn-trenk 526_gr_sketch.gif (19.33 KiB) Viewed 6973 times
45bpcr

mlcasmey
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Re: Pedersoli Sharps Bullet Diameter

Post by mlcasmey » Wed Aug 07, 2013 1:53 pm

45bpcr. I guess I'm just looking to get the most accuracy out of my Italian rifles since I can't afford a Shiloh or C-Sharps. Pedersoli makes beautiful looking fire arms, but I don't understand why they would cut their barrels on the bleeding edge of the vast majority of the molds sold in America, .458/9. As a bench rest/long range guy just learning the black art of black powder I've read you want your lead bullets a minimum of .001 - .002 oversize of the groove diameter and to slug your barrel to get the true dim. Like they advertise all of mine are in fact .458.

I also suffer from obsessive compulsive MOA disorder. I'm always tweaking toward the elusive ragged hole.

I just wanted some feed back from other .458 guys if a .459 truly is as good as it will get, or if I set up my dies and molds to make a .460, will I gain accuracy at .002 over or will I just be wasting my money for an un-noticeable difference from this quality of gun.

My mentor is a champion shooter but shoots a C-Sharps and can't really answer my question.

Thanks, Mike.

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montana_charlie
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Re: Pedersoli Sharps Bullet Diameter

Post by montana_charlie » Wed Aug 07, 2013 7:56 pm

mlcasmey wroteCOLON45bpcr. I guess I'm just looking to get the most accuracy out of my Italian rifles since I can't afford a Shiloh or C-Sharps. Pedersoli makes beautiful looking fire arms, but I don't understand why they would cut their barrels on the bleeding edge of the vast majority of the molds sold in America, .458/9.
When most cavities were cut with cherries, it was typical for a new cherry to cut a cavity that would throw a .460" bullet. When it shrank (through use and resharpening) to .457" it got retired instead of resharpened one more time.
So, it was common for mould makers to make moulds that threw .460" bullets, in spite of whatever number was stamped on the outside.
They would generally state that their cavity would throw a bullet .xxx" -.000"/+.003".
That is still pretty common, and NEI is one example. I have two '458' moulds from them that actually throw .460" bullets.
As a bench rest/long range guy just learning the black art of black powder I've read you want your lead bullets a minimum of .001 - .002 oversize of the groove diameter and to slug your barrel to get the true dim. Like they advertise all of mine are in fact .458.
That rule of thumb is really more applicble to those who shoot lead bullets with smokeless powder.
It doesn't 'bump up' a bullet in the same way that BP does, so when the bullet is chambered it already needs to be fat enough to seal the bore.
The need for an over-groove-diameter bullet becomes even more critical when using wheel weight (or harder) alloys.

With 'soft' (lead/tin) alloys and black powder, you could probably get very good results even if your bullet was .457".
I just wanted some feed back from other .458 guys if a .459 truly is as good as it will get, or if I set up my dies and molds to make a .460, will I gain accuracy at .002 over or will I just be wasting my money for an un-noticeable difference from this quality of gun.
I also have a Pedersoli, and I prefer .460" bullets. But I like them for convenience in reloading, since I don't resize my cases.
I don't think I would see a noticeable performance decrease if they were only .458" ... but I would have to do something 'extra' to get the kind of alignment with the bore that I have now.
My mentor is a champion shooter but shoots a C-Sharps and can't really answer my question.
I'm not a champion, nor even a competitive, shooter. But I do enjoy small, tight groups ... and I can get them often enough to keep me interested.

As it happens, I DO have a mould for the Pedersoli/Gunn/Trenk bullet. It is possibly the last one sold by Victory Molds as Steve Fotou was closing up shop.
If you would like to try to talk me out of it, send a PM ...

CM
Retired...twice. Now, just raisin' cows and livin' on borrowed time.

mlcasmey
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Re: Pedersoli Sharps Bullet Diameter

Post by mlcasmey » Thu Aug 08, 2013 8:43 am

Thanks Charlie.

Someone suggested I not resize to .459 but leave the bullet as cast and pan lube them and load them. I may give that a try and see if I can tell any difference at all.

I am shooting 1.5 Swiss BP so the .459's are probably obturating (sp) just fine using 1:20.

I would rather spend my money on quality lead and powder than more molding equipment if I don't need it.

Mike.

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Re: Pedersoli Sharps Bullet Diameter

Post by Ranch 13 » Thu Aug 08, 2013 9:18 am

If you're not getting any leading problems with things the way they are now. Leave it be, and work on your shooting technigue, and begin tweeking your load a bit with either more or less powder, different wads, maybe your fouling control sucks, and it could be your lube just isn't getting the job done. Lube will make a difference in accuracy.Primers can change group size.
Cheap tang sights will drive you batty until you finally figure out that a sight that doesn't lock up in the same place after each shot, isn't going to let the bullet be directed to the same spot...
So maybe a description of what the problem with your accuracy is will help you find answers.

mlcasmey
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Re: Pedersoli Sharps Bullet Diameter

Post by mlcasmey » Thu Aug 08, 2013 1:45 pm

I guess I should have qualified my very first question. I am not having a particular problem right now. Just trying to get ahead of the game as I learn these new rifles. My 45/90 with an MVA full length Malcolm is shooting pretty well at 100 yards. Not happy yet, but have not started tweaking loads.

It was just a thought about bullet size as one issue I wanted some feedback on as one tweak to either pursue of drop as I proceed. Swiss is not cheap stuff to experiment a lot with, and it goes even faster in my 45/120. I want to try and avoid tweaking multiple variables at the same time, but that means more powder, lead, lube and primers burned up.

If a .459 1:20 lead bullet should obdurate just fine and trying to add .001 will have only a minor effect, I will focus on other aspects like load, fouling control...

Thanks for your thoughts.

Mike.

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