Chamber: Ballard Rifle & Cart Co 40-65

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SgtDog0311
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Chamber: Ballard Rifle & Cart Co 40-65

Post by SgtDog0311 » Thu Dec 08, 2016 4:53 pm

I recently relined an original Ballard and had a tight chamber cut for that one.

Brass for that does not fit in my Cody so it must be tighter still. (edited to strike this statement)

Chamber length, diameter at the end of the web, neck diameter, freebore if any, groove and bore specs would be a preview of what to expect if anyone has done their due diligence on their Cody 40-65. I plan on doing a chamber cast as soon as I can locate my cerrosafe but curiosity makes me ask.

Particularly interested in which version of brass I'll need. I don't want to use Starline 40-65 if the length is short for the Cody chamber - despite the extra work I would rather reform 45-70 for proper length. So far with my other 40-65 the only issues with Starline 45-70 have been the larger datum at the web's end being larger. And of course the typical issues reforming 45-70, (Lyman #17 Shell holder and possibly needing to take a little of the bottom of the FL sizer). I have an 1895 in 40-65 there would be no hope for using 45-70 in. Guess it could be the same here.

Don't imagine they would change reamers on us but my own chamber cast will confirm whatever may be provided. Any info would be appreciated.
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Brent
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Re: Chamber: Ballard Rifle & Cart Co 40-65

Post by Brent » Thu Dec 08, 2016 6:17 pm

I'm slowly building a pair of .40-65s with a friend. We opted for the .45-70 brass and I have annealed them all (1250) and sized them down. Once the chambers are cut, I'll trim them once and then we should be done. Our chambers will be really tight, and we may need to cut down the sizing die and resize the brass again. I had to do that with my custom .45-70 chambers. All of these are set up to be used exclusively with paper patched bullets.

Brent
I'm not from here, I just live here.

gunlaker
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Re: Chamber: Ballard Rifle & Cart Co 40-65

Post by gunlaker » Thu Dec 08, 2016 8:14 pm

RCBS makes, or at least used to make, dies specifically for the Shiloh Sharps chamber which is pretty tight. Those dies take the area just above the web down a little more than the standard RCBS dies. Maybe they would solve your problem.

Chris.

SgtDog0311
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Re: Chamber: Ballard Rifle & Cart Co 40-65

Post by SgtDog0311 » Fri Dec 09, 2016 6:35 am

Brent, Chris, Thanks for the responses.

I found my Cerrosafe so plan to do a chamber cast this morning. I asked the same question over on ASSRA also - someone suggested a Ron Long. After I read that it seemed to me like I read his name once associated with the Cody bunch. Could be one of those phantom recollections I have though.

Dadgum Brent... that's a lot of brass!!!

SgtDog0311
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JoinedCOLON Thu Sep 17, 2015 9:58 am

Re: Chamber: Ballard Rifle & Cart Co 40-65

Post by SgtDog0311 » Fri Dec 09, 2016 7:54 am

OK... not a phantom recollection. Production Manager! At least for a time.

kokomokid
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Re: Chamber: Ballard Rifle & Cart Co 40-65

Post by kokomokid » Fri Dec 09, 2016 10:20 am

Starline 40-65 brass is short for my tight chamber. My gun likes .409 bullets but I have to neck turn brass to make it work. Chamber is very simular to the Ron Long chamber and has a neck.

SgtDog0311
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Re: Chamber: Ballard Rifle & Cart Co 40-65

Post by SgtDog0311 » Fri Dec 09, 2016 1:27 pm

Well here is some follow-up:
Case length 2.040+.068 or 2.108
Neck length = .535
Neck Diameter = .4315
Freebore = none discernible
Bore = .400
Groove = .408
Datum at web = .503+
Leade Ramp = .170
Some Measurements are give&stake like the leade ramp length.

So not a Ron Long! Oh well, that's why we do chamber casts :-)

My resized 45-70 run .503 at the datum where the web ends.
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gunlaker
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Re: Chamber: Ballard Rifle & Cart Co 40-65

Post by gunlaker » Fri Dec 09, 2016 3:28 pm

The RCBS "Shiloh .40-65" dies might be just the ticket for you then. My cases are no larger than 0.498" forward of the rim. I use those dies to convert .45-70 Remington brass for my Shiloh.

Chris.

SgtDog0311
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Re: Chamber: Ballard Rifle & Cart Co 40-65

Post by SgtDog0311 » Fri Dec 09, 2016 4:48 pm

Chis, thanks for the RCBS info.

I may have to revisit the 250 cases I just did for my reline (not to be confused with the Cody). For that one I used a Lyman #17 shell holder knowing that allowed just a bit more on the press but it's still tight there. I was using a 40-65 Cowboy sizer though. On that chamber I self-inflicted some labor on myself with a tight chamber overall when I had Manson do my reamer. I have to turn necks to .010 but I figured as much since I'd possibly be going up to a .410 diameter bullet. But on the datum at web end I just miscalculated and I can see just how much when I go from my reline to the Cody chamber. No problem in the Cody but requires heavy thumb pressure before it can be cammed in with the breach bolt. It's no real work for the bolt but I'd have gone .001 smaller diameter there were I given a do-over. I thought after the first firing it might relieve that some but they chamber the same whether once fired or FL sized. I reckon I could take the die down some, or as you suggest buy an RCBS Shiloh sizer, or I could run a flex hone for the first .200-.400 of the chamber. I've never done it but I've heard it offered by a gunsmith and assured crosshatching does not bother extraction. Never having done that I'm hesitant, especially with it being a new chamber.

As for the measurements I cited I think the lighting, cast and imperfect measuring with the calipers add up to a standard 40-65 Win Chamber. The case looks like the leade ramp runs right to the 45* at the case mouth but that may be deceptive. This one (if I did it right) from PTG looks suspiciously close to all but those dimensions.

The reason I reported the brass from the Reline did not fit in the Cody was due to the length and the bell I'd lift on the neck.
Attachments
40-65 CD Winchester.png
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gunlaker
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Re: Chamber: Ballard Rifle & Cart Co 40-65

Post by gunlaker » Fri Dec 09, 2016 6:48 pm

I definitely wouldn't mess with the chamber. Likely the gunsmith that would do it for you has less experience with these rifles than the guys who built the rifle.

I'd try the Shiloh specific dies, or shortening the one you have. I imagine that'd be no real trick for a competent machinist.

I've run into problems chambering brass with a little too much bell on the case mouth. That happened to me when I shot in the Colorado regional this year with my Borchardt. I guess I belled the cases just a tiny bit more than usual. I was very lucky that the guy I was shooting with had a little pusher stick with him or my day would have been done. Fortunately it worked out very well for me :D

Chris.

Kurt
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Re: Chamber: Ballard Rifle & Cart Co 40-65

Post by Kurt » Fri Dec 09, 2016 8:30 pm

Shortening a sizing die is the easy option to take the easy edge off the bottom of the sizing die and de burr the cut edge.
If I had my lathe running I would turn a base swage die in a hurry and let you have it. I had to do this for some of my .44 chambers and a .40.
I also took off .110" off a .40-70 die for the .40-70 to swage down Hornady cases, I would not mess with the chamber if all possible.
Here is another option as long as you have the reamer. Order a $25. dollar die blank from PT&G or Midway with a .400 pilot hole and take it to a place that has a lathe and use that reamer and just partially run it in the die blank to the dimension you need and finish reaming the pilot hole larger so you can run the full length case in or cut the uncut portion of the die off. Using the chamber reamer will not work for making a full length sizing die because of the spring back of the brass.
This is why when I have a custom reamer made I have them make a sizing die reamer also that is a couple thousands smaller.
When you order a custom chambered rifle chances are it will be tough to get a over the counter sizing die. I been through this.
What I have done with using a chamber reamer is, I ran it in a die blank enough to swage the base down and then ran the reamer in from the other side and stopped short and used this end for a taper crimp die that has a long gentle crimp and cut threads the whole die body.
All is fun when you have a lathe to spend time with. :)
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"Complaining about a problem without posing a solution is called whining."
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SgtDog0311
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Re: Chamber: Ballard Rifle & Cart Co 40-65

Post by SgtDog0311 » Sat Dec 10, 2016 5:01 pm

I'll heed the advice and not mess with the chamber fellahs.

Next go round I'll start with an RCBS Sharps Shiloh sizer on hand,either borrowed or bought (since I had a generous offer for trying one out). For now I have 250 cases formed, trimmed-to-length, turned, expanded and slightly belled, so I'll rely on the breach block for help with those. Doesn't seem to tax it too much for now. Be a while before I shoot those since I need to see John Walters for some 20:1 first.

If unaltered they swage down to .498 at the web ending like Gunlaker reports then I'll be good to go and it wouldn't cost any more than a flex hone anyway. One question for Chris, on the neck diameter, is the RCBS Shiloh Sharps sizer like most I've inquired about and size necks down to .422? For GG bullets at .409 or so that means expanding back out about .007, depending on the neck tension I use. Would be nice to have one that sized necks to .429 instead of .422 or anywhere north of .422. Either way I'll opt for that since once fired i'll likely just neck size with a Meacham bushing die.

I won't be taking any off my current sizer since it works well with two other 40-65s I load for.

SgtDog0311
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Re: Chamber: Ballard Rifle & Cart Co 40-65

Post by SgtDog0311 » Sat Feb 11, 2017 12:30 pm

Chris, never followed up on this. I got that Shiloh set. Worked perfect! 250 done and 250 to go. Good advise!

gunlaker
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Re: Chamber: Ballard Rifle & Cart Co 40-65

Post by gunlaker » Sat Feb 11, 2017 1:45 pm

I'm glad it worked for you. I always wanted to have the people in Cody build a rifle for me. After they opened up the Wyoming Armory I tried numerous times to get a hold of them but they were too busy I guess. They do very nice work from what I've heard.

Chris.

SgtDog0311
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Re: Chamber: Ballard Rifle & Cart Co 40-65

Post by SgtDog0311 » Tue Dec 05, 2017 9:56 pm

Chris (if you happen on this again), just snagged another one. This time in 45-70. Was happy to find it weighs almost 11 & 1/2 lbs. Was afraid it would be more like 10+ lbs.

If anyone has suggestions for a bullet profile south of 500gr I'm all ears. Was thinking I might try to find or draw up something in the 460-480gr range. Kinda scared of those 535gr bullets since they the get my attention enough in my friends sharps, which I think is a 12+lb rifle.

Don't have any particulars on the chamber or twist yet since I just brought it home tonight.

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