New Alloy

Discussion on Bullets and Bullet Lubes, Casting, Swaging, Paper Patching, and Lube Cookies.
Kurt
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New Alloy

Post by Kurt » Sat Jan 20, 2018 8:17 pm

For about a year now I been working on a alloy for the light .40 caliber and the heavier .45's to get a alloy that will hold the 2/3 of the bullet from upsetting into the groove. I was looking for a alloy that is hard but malleable so it just expands the 1/3 of the base but hold the front at bore diameter with out distortion. Last winter I ran out of snow so what little we got so far this winter I shot a bunch and I just found three so far and they sure look like I'm in the ball park from what I'm after but I still need the .45 bullets and also the different mixes.
The dimple you see is the end of the shank and the start of the ogive where I hold my patch. The land impressions show full rotation with out a sign of stripping and a lack of gas cuts and they are at full groove depth.
The left bullet I dropped that is what the dent is from.
Now to find the rest and get then making holes through paper. I hope the holes will look as good as the recovered bullets.
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SgtDog0311
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Re: New Alloy

Post by SgtDog0311 » Sat Jan 20, 2018 8:50 pm

That's impressive Kurt. With the level of effort I've no doubt the holes will look just as impressive. I'm not PPing yet but not sure how many years i'd have in to it before I thought about trying to upset just the bottom third or so with the intent of keeping perfect alignment. Impressive! If we ever get to meet at an event I hope I remember to ask about the work you did with your alloy.

Kurt
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Re: New Alloy

Post by Kurt » Sat Jan 20, 2018 9:46 pm

John my quest for a good bullet is like your quest for a good mould that casts a good bullet.
I always say "if you shoot a ugly bullet you get a ugly group. :D

Kurt
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Re: New Alloy

Post by Kurt » Tue Jan 23, 2018 11:42 am

We had a January thaw and it surfaced some more bullets and I see some interesting results in this alloy that is not the usual lead/tin/antimony alloy mostly used but I see that I will have to add a little lead to soften it some, especially for the .45 calibers. If they were sast as a GG I would leave it as it is. The left 121 bullets I shot loaded in a .45-70 case and shot with a .45-90 just to see how they react and it shows slight gas cuts and a start of stripping but not bad. The second from the right is a PJ .44 GG creedmoor what is good with this recovered bullet is that the bore riding section on the ogive did not get land cuts and it rode down the bore fully engraving the depth of the grooves, a big plus to reduce smears and holding the nose. All of the GG bullets were shot loaded with no wads under the bullets and this alloy did not deform the base like 1/20 or 1/16 would have been and there is no finning of the bullets PP or GG.
Now for the interesting part. The bullets were all shot using the same alloy mix but look at the .45 and .40 PP. The .45's did not bump up far enough to get full rotation in fact they look unfired almost except for the light land marks and they were shot from the .45-90 and the .40's were shot using the .40-65 and the base got almost the bump up I'm looking for but they filled the grooves at the base enough that they got full rotation with out any sign of stripping.
They could be tempered just slightly more. But for the GG I would not change anything........Kurt
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Kurt
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Re: New Alloy

Post by Kurt » Fri Jan 26, 2018 12:35 pm

It was decent this morning it warmed up to 45 degrees with about a 15 mph wind so I took little Missy out and shot 11 rounds one for fouling the barrel and ten at center with this alloy and I must say Missy and I are starting to develop a good friendship bond :)
I just shot in my yard at the 130 yard target but I think it shows promise. Now the wait till I get a chance to shoot at 500 yards to see if it holds up. But this morning is a start.
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bruce moulds
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Re: New Alloy

Post by bruce moulds » Wed Jan 31, 2018 3:09 am

kurt,
if you have an alloy that makes bore riding noses actually ride the bore, you will solve a lot of problems that people did not know they had.
this of course while sealing the bullet in the barrel.
most of the so called bore riding nosed bullets are only suited to smokeless powder, as black bumps the nose into the rifling with commonly used alloys.
the paul jones creedmoor design is amongst the worst of these.
when you mention this issue in certain circles, all you can hear is crickets because people just don't want to think about it.
how people get away with it to the extent they do almost defies logic.
it sounds like a good alloy for the dual diameter pp bullets some of us are now using to make greaser chambers shoot pp bullets.
congratulations.
keep safe,
bruce.

Kurt
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Re: New Alloy

Post by Kurt » Wed Jan 31, 2018 10:04 am

Bruce,
No there is not much interest in this sort of stuff and I don't even know why I take up band with posting it
The mine set is one alloy for every bullet and to an extent in most cases it's alright, but the .40 calibers and .45 calibers react differently with the same alloy mixes be it a GG, PP seated deep in the case, barely in the case or breach seated.
If one wants to use a bore riding bullet like you mention the alloy can be improved to keep the ogive off the lands to keep it from smearing lead and also improve the accuracy.
Look at the .44 caliber GG in the photo above with the creedmoor type nose they can be cast to keep the ogive from rubbing the bore even if it's just one thousands off the bore. You can only get a Tin/Lead so hard 60% tin/40% lead is the hardest that mix will get and if you mix say 1/12 or even 1/14 tin/lead you will see a decrease in upset using a PP bullet and if you make the mistake patching it .002" under bore diameter you will see very light land engravings to the point were you will not get full rotation and also get gas cuts. Now breach seating that same alloy two thousands or more or patching it to groove diameter all is well.
Those PP bullets above cast with this alloy mix actually has a larger dimple using the Lee lead tester then 1/16 tin/lead that shows 7.6 using my Lee tester. Those bullets above test right at Lee 7.8 but the alloy holds the nose setback a lot better then the 1/16 tin/lead. And there is no antimony in this alloy at all. I have 4 different elements besides tin and lead in this mix, but it still needs refining.
Kurt

mtnfisher
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Re: New Alloy

Post by mtnfisher » Wed Jan 31, 2018 1:39 pm

Kurt wroteCOLON
Wed Jan 31, 2018 10:04 am
No there is not much interest in this sort of stuff and I don't even know why I take up band with posting it
I appreciate all the testing and information you share. You are the Mann of the 21st Century

bruce moulds
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Re: New Alloy

Post by bruce moulds » Thu Feb 01, 2018 2:05 am

kurt,
mntnfisher, myself, and many many others really enjoy your most refreshing and interesting posts.
you are one of those who goes out there and tries things, as opposed to those who just rely on urban myth and heresay.
you led the charge on 44 cal with about 1 other guy who has disappeared, and how many people benefited from that?
those who are not interested in the stuff you play with do themselves a big disservice.
many of them are just too goddam lazy to think.
hell you don't have to agree with everthing you say, but you do have to admit it is all interesting.
i wish i had 1/2 of your mental capacity and energy.
keep safe,
bruce.

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Re: New Alloy

Post by Ranch 13 » Thu Feb 01, 2018 8:18 am

Kurt I'm wondering if those 45 caliber bullets were cast at a few thousands larger in diameter, if the results may of come out a bit different?

Kurt
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Re: New Alloy

Post by Kurt » Thu Feb 01, 2018 10:20 am

TNX. Fisher and Bruce.

Don I would think that the .45's would bump up more then the .40's because of the heavier weight and powder charge then the .40's had but it is not the case, just the opposite happened. The warm January thaw wiped out my test material :) but more is coming in the next couple days so maybe I can find what I'm looking for yet this winter. A one hole with 8 shots I cant stick my finger through with out making it larger and two just below makes me want to look into this a little deeper. :)

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Re: New Alloy

Post by Ranch 13 » Thu Feb 01, 2018 11:20 am

One thing to be mindful of is while a bullet shows spectacular performance at close range, when you get to 700 and beyond things can sure go to pot on you.
With the 396,415 bullet is a particularly good example in our rifles. In my 40-70 it shoots lights out to 300, but by the time you get to 500 things don't look so good, and get worse if there much of a crosswind, but the 40-65 will shoot groups at 500 that you can cover with your hand.
The CPA will shoot the dual diameter .446 bullet very well to 1000, yet the hi wall it won't shoot for beans past 800.
Things that make you scratch your head for sure.

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Re: New Alloy

Post by Ranch 13 » Thu Feb 01, 2018 11:25 am

Another thing on the bump up difference I'm wondering about.
How much difference between the bore diameter and bullet diameter between the 40 and 45 bullets are you dealing with? In other words is the 40 closer as cast to the bore diameter , than the 45 bullet?

Kurt
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Re: New Alloy

Post by Kurt » Thu Feb 01, 2018 4:43 pm

Both bullets were patched right at bore diameter.
Yes I know that the 130 yard target is to close but I don't have any ware to shoot past 200 till I get to a match and man do I hate testing loads during a match.

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Re: New Alloy

Post by Ranch 13 » Thu Feb 01, 2018 5:56 pm

But what was the diameter of the 40 bullet, and what is the diameter of the 45 bullet before patching?

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