Grease cookie consistency

Discussion on Bullets and Bullet Lubes, Casting, Swaging, Paper Patching, and Lube Cookies.
flygrimm
PostsCOLON 2
JoinedCOLON Sat Dec 24, 2016 9:14 am

Grease cookie consistency

Post by flygrimm » Sun Dec 25, 2016 6:16 pm

Hi all

I am loading for the 577 450 Martini Henry. I will be using a .457 450 grain Lee bullet paper patched up to arouond .468 to .470. I made some lube using the 50%, 40%, 10% formula of beeswax, Crisco and vegetable oil. I used 2 cups of beeswax as 50%, 1 2/3 cups of Crisco (about 41%) and 1/3 cup of vegetable oil (about 9%). The final result is a mixture that is like a hard Chapstick at room temperature. What should the 'hardness' of a wax cookie be? Cold butter, not quite room temperature butter (soft) or something in between? Should I be able to squeeze it between my fingers and have it break up or squish? To make it softer I assume I should remelt it and add more vegetable oil.

Thanks. This is my first foray into BPC reloading.

Stuart

Brent
PostsCOLON 1644
JoinedCOLON Sun Nov 20, 2005 9:12 pm
LocationCOLON the most boring real estate west of Illinois

Re: Grease cookie consistency

Post by Brent » Mon Dec 26, 2016 7:49 am

You are probably pretty good with what you have for starters. My cookies are similar or maybe slightly softer.
I'm not from here, I just live here.

bruce moulds
PostsCOLON 85
JoinedCOLON Mon May 04, 2015 11:47 pm

Re: Grease cookie consistency

Post by bruce moulds » Mon Dec 26, 2016 12:54 pm

depends on the weather.
canada in mid winter or Arizona in mid summer will have different requirements.
keep safe,
bruce.

martinibelgian
PostsCOLON 459
JoinedCOLON Sat Nov 26, 2005 5:31 am
LocationCOLON Belgium

Re: Grease cookie consistency

Post by martinibelgian » Mon Dec 26, 2016 4:39 pm

FWIW,
The originals were pure beeswax - and they had to be cupped on the underside to expand and do their job, so a bit softer definitely is not a problem - but your rifle will tell yyou. Just make sure that barrel is smooth, squeaky clean and completely free of leading when shooting PP, That will deternine if you can get good accuracy shooting dirty.

bruce moulds
PostsCOLON 85
JoinedCOLON Mon May 04, 2015 11:47 pm

Re: Grease cookie consistency

Post by bruce moulds » Tue Dec 27, 2016 1:38 am

I have recently been trying some quite soft wads in the antipodean summer.
I think accuracy was suffering from the over soft material blowing in front of the under bullet wad, causing it to stick to the base of the bullet.
this is assumption only, because how can you really tell?
they would still have chest shot a deer at 150 yds, but not targets.
the same material soaked into felt did the same thing.
this stuff was of the consistency of thin grease.
it was an attempt to use oiliness instead of moisture to soften the lube powder mix, and hopefully work in low humidity.
the quest continues.
keep safe,
bruce.

Kurt
PostsCOLON 648
JoinedCOLON Mon Nov 21, 2005 8:05 am

Re: Grease cookie consistency

Post by Kurt » Tue Dec 27, 2016 9:05 am

I use a very soft lube wad. When I squeeze it between the thumb and finger its like a soft butter that has been out of the fridge for a 1/2 hour.
I have a tight fitting wad under the bullet. Plastic or a .060" hard fiber gasket material, not the rubber inserted type and a very thin .012" over the powder. It is a been just a poster cards and a wax paper to help retard the oil leaching through the .012 card, but I really never felt it degraded the powder load. Lately I have started using parchment instead of wax paper because they are easier to separate after they are punched out.
I want a soft wad over the powder so it leaves lube behind in the bore and a hard wad under the bullet that stays tight in the bore and grooves to do the scraping. A hard wad over the powder leaves very little lube behind compared to a soft thin wad. Just spend a little time in front of the barrel looking for the wads when your done shooting and you will be able to see just how much lube is sandwiched between the wads.
Shooting dirty is not how good the lube is it is also the bullet profile your using that will let you shoot dirty. My 95 Marlin I can lever the rounds in as fast as I can work the action and shoot a 50 round ammo box empty with out failure. The .30-30 I have not found a bullet for it that will let me shoot 50 rounds with out failure yet.
Kurt

flygrimm
PostsCOLON 2
JoinedCOLON Sat Dec 24, 2016 9:14 am

Re: Grease cookie consistency

Post by flygrimm » Tue Dec 27, 2016 6:58 pm

Thanks for the great replies.

I think I will try it as is and make up 10 rounds and see how it works out.

This is my first foray into Black Powder. Other than trying to find the wads in the grass how will I know if the lube is about right? I don't really think there is enough lube in a 1/4" disc to lube all the way up to the muzzle. I realize that the lube is mostly for softening of the powder residue and the paper patch is the 'lube' for the bullet.

I really jumped into this project with both feet. First black powder rifle, first case forming project, first bullet casting project and complicated things with paper patching! Call me crazy.

Stuart

martinibelgian
PostsCOLON 459
JoinedCOLON Sat Nov 26, 2005 5:31 am
LocationCOLON Belgium

Re: Grease cookie consistency

Post by martinibelgian » Wed Dec 28, 2016 1:49 am

A lube cookie needs to be thick to have lots of contact surface with the bore - so make that cookie as thick as your load will allow. And you would be surprised at how little lube is actually required. After all, GG bullets sling off most of their lube upon exiting the muzzle - and it doesn't do much good there...

Kurt
PostsCOLON 648
JoinedCOLON Mon Nov 21, 2005 8:05 am

Re: Grease cookie consistency

Post by Kurt » Wed Dec 28, 2016 9:39 am

Stuart

Let me give you a little example of hard and soft lube cookies. I have spent a lot of time developing a way to load a black powder cartridge to shoot "dirty" especially in a repeating rifle like the lever action rifle and I have come a long way with my loads so I can shoot with out using any fouling control short of maybe a light blow up the breach or down the muzzle, but I very seldom have to do this. Below is a example of a couple lube wads I cropped down for you to see two examples between a hard and soft wad. Both wads where the same thickness. The white wad was a firm and the pink was a soft. The white looked like it was never fired short of the land cuts in it's side other then that it did not loose thickness and it was soft enough that I could squeeze it between my fingers and it would flow out between the two wads but it took some pressure like SPG lube would. The pink wad is just about consumed up in the barrel and it is very soft that when I squeeze it, it just about is like soft shortening. But it takes some work protecting the it from staying out of the powder with the use of the proper wads. I shoot them all year round soft with out degrading the loads.
Shooting a match lube is not a requirement if you control the fouling using wiping with a damp or a couple damp followed with a dry patch. I know of one shooter personally that does not use a lube wad and if he is not on the top of the leader board after the match is over he is darned close.
This is a different story if you want to use a blow tube with out a lube wad. The bore will be like a coating of sand paper.
You can test to see how your lube is doing. Fire two shots and push a dry patch through the bore and see if it drags and look at it when it clears the muzzle to see if the patch is moist and the fouling smears on your finger. If it does this your getting it right.

Image

By the time the repeating rifles came out like the Henrys and the Winchesters and a few others where many shots where fired the conventional bullets like the PP did not work out in the repeating lever action rifles to well so the GG bullets gained more favor. It is more beneficial to have a wider lube surface then a deep groove with less surface of lube in contact in the bore so bullets like below where popular for the repeaters. They hade a scraper groove up front to push the fouling out and a lot of surface lube in contact with the bore. A ogive that will feed into the throat with out restriction for reliable loading in a lever rifle.
If I was to shoot the cowboy matches and wanting to use black powder this is the bullet I would use. I use it in my 95 marlin and I can work the lever like the rifleman did on TV :) Don't cut the flat nose short for out to 1000 yards, it will hit a gong at that range using the sharps.

Just load and shoot to find out what will work for you.

Image

BUTTON_POST_REPLY