Would appreciate help with swaging

Discussion on Bullets and Bullet Lubes, Casting, Swaging, Paper Patching, and Lube Cookies.
paravil
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Would appreciate help with swaging

Post by paravil » Sun May 17, 2015 1:50 am

At present, I´m attempting to accurize my short Werder cavalry cabine at 100m. I cast bullets on a custom mold made to order on the basis of a cerro barrel cast. The bullets I make are NOT uniform weight. Why? Swaged bullets look a lot more precise but I don´t know how the process would work to achieve the exact same bullet diametre. I´d appreciate your help.

[attachment=0]P1010702.jpg]
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P1010702.jpg
My cast M/69 (Kurz) (11.5x35R Werder) bullets
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Brent
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Re: Would appreciate help with swaging

Post by Brent » Sun May 17, 2015 7:21 am

paravil,
For all practical purposes, swaging grease groove bullets is impossible. They are also somewhat overrated anyway.

If your mould is not casting consistently, it might be your casting techniques need a little work. How much do the bullets vary in weight?

Brent
I'm not from here, I just live here.

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montana_charlie
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Re: Would appreciate help with swaging

Post by montana_charlie » Sun May 17, 2015 10:31 am

paravil,
Those three bullets seem to be fairly well formed, but thay have a 'scruffy' look.
What is the source of your casting alloy, and have you taken steps to 'clean it' ?

CM
Retired...twice. Now, just raisin' cows and livin' on borrowed time.

Kurt
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Re: Would appreciate help with swaging

Post by Kurt » Sun May 17, 2015 6:07 pm

Brent wroteCOLONparavil,
For all practical purposes, swaging grease groove bullets is impossible.
Brent
Yes it's possible Brent. At one time anyway it was.
Herters and Hemp made GG swage dies. Here is one of those GG swage dies.

Image
"Complaining about a problem without posing a solution is called whining."
Teddy Roosevelt.

Brent
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Re: Would appreciate help with swaging

Post by Brent » Sun May 17, 2015 8:46 pm

Yeah, Kurt, I know. But try and get one at a reasonable price to run in a press that a reasonable individual can afford have make reasonable production out of it. Unless you can make one yourself, I'm not aware of anyone that can do it. Neither of the Corbins will and they don't even want to talk about it. There aren't a whole lot of options, though perhaps there is someone out there, tucked away in some corner of the planet that most of us don't know about. But that's why I purposely said, "for all practical purposes", as opposed to, "it just not possible".
I'm not from here, I just live here.

paravil
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Re: Would appreciate help with swaging

Post by paravil » Mon May 18, 2015 1:32 am

Many thanks for the prompt help. I´ll weigh the next lot I make (the present batch is fully greased, and I´d have to clean it all off). Not being able to swage and grease at the same time is a bit unexpected. My mold is clean, so how can I eliminate the `scruffy look´? I use lead scrap that I get cheap from a dealer and I add a spot of tin. I weighed the last two batches and there was quite a difference within the batch.

Kurt
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Re: Would appreciate help with swaging

Post by Kurt » Mon May 18, 2015 8:08 am

Brent

Your right about the cost. Several years ago I stopped at Dave Corbins shop to bend his ears for a order I placed and the long wait. After my blood pressure lowered when he reached up on the shelf and pulled out a die identical to the one I had on order. :? I asked him if he could make a GG swage die and I showed him the picture and he said you think my special orders are high that one would be as much as this business would cost you.


Paravil.

Looking at your bullets they look like your using a bottom pour lead pot or dumping the alloy straight down into the mould to fast.
Start your pour holding the mould on it's side and slowly rotating it upright with the ladle tight on the sprue plate divot. and when the cavity is filled raise the ladle and let a little hit the top of the plate.
"Complaining about a problem without posing a solution is called whining."
Teddy Roosevelt.

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montana_charlie
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Re: Would appreciate help with swaging

Post by montana_charlie » Mon May 18, 2015 9:35 am

paravil wroteCOLONNot being able to swage and grease at the same time is a bit unexpected.
I suspect that you are talking about 'sizing' a bullet ... not swaging one.
Sizing will reduce the diameter of a bullet that is too large, and it will make an 'oval' bullet more round.
In a lubrisizer you can size and lubricate a bullet in a single operation.

But 'sizing' will not change the weight of bullets.

My mold is clean, so how can I eliminate the `scruffy look´? I use lead scrap that I get cheap from a dealer and I add a spot of tin.
Unless those are spots of frost (unlikely) I doubt that the scruffiness comes from your mould. Also, if is not a sign of contaminants within the alloy, it can probably be dismissed as 'cosmetic'.
However, working with a clean melting pot and fluxing to remove 'crud' should produce bullets with a uniform surface appearance.
I weighed the last two batches and there was quite a difference within the batch.
Really ... the most effective practice for getting a consistent weight from a batch of bullets is to follow a strict cadence when casting.

First, have your pot temp/mould temp coordinated to keep the sprue liquid for about five seconds when you pour a bullet.

Wait some predetermined period (perhaps as much as 30 seconds) after the sprue solidifies before cutting it.
(The visual indicator here is how the sprue cuts. Does it slice off cleanly, or leave a 'divot'? If there's a divot, wait longer.)

After cutting the sprue, allow time for the bullet to contract enough to fall cleanly from the mould cavity.
(If it's 'sticky', wait longer.)

When the bullet drops, don't spend time admiring it. Set up and pour your next bullet, leaving a puddle on the sprue plate.

If you start counting at a monotonously steady cadence when you take the dipper away from the mould, you will count five for the sprue solidification, and will hit each of the following 'milestones' on the same count ... every time.

This will produce bullets that are monotonously similar in weight.


In your case, you may have trouble maintaining a steady cadence if you spend varying amounts of time reheating your base plug.

I don't use a mould of that type, so I can't speak from experience.
But, I suspect that if you leave the bullet in the mould while you heat the plug, your mould temperature should be more consistent from one pour to the next.

CM
Retired...twice. Now, just raisin' cows and livin' on borrowed time.

paravil
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Re: Would appreciate help with swaging

Post by paravil » Tue May 19, 2015 5:00 am

So I should take a bit more time while pouring into the mold. Now it seems I don´t know the difference between `swaging´ and `sizing´ .... ? (Thought they were both the same?) If I can `size´ and grease at the same time, how can I get a sizer that´s EXACTLY the same size as my bullets? Can that be done on my Forster press? And what does `swaging´ entail? At present, greasing the bullets is soewhat messy. On the positive side, the very short barreled carbine with the Werder pistol shorter cartridges is quite accurate up to 100m. Don´t think I can expect much improvement.

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montana_charlie
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Re: Would appreciate help with swaging

Post by montana_charlie » Tue May 19, 2015 9:28 am

paravil wroteCOLONNow it seems I don´t know the difference between `swaging´ and `sizing´ .... ? (Thought they were both the same?)
And what does `swaging´ entail?
Swaging is a method for 'making' bullets. A cylinder of lead is put under great pressure inside a die which has a cavity machined to the shape of a bullet. That cylinder takes on the shape of the cavity ... and is then ejected (fully formed) from the die.

Most moulds cast a bullet that is slightly larger than the nominal size attributed to that bullet design. This leaves room for minor adjustment of the bullet diameter to fit a specific barrel/chamber.
Sizing is just a slight reduction in the diameter of a bullet accomplished by pushing a (previously formed) bullet through a die of a given size.
If I can `size´ and grease at the same time, how can I get a sizer that´s EXACTLY the same size as my bullets? Can that be done on my Forster press?
Lee sells sizing dies that mount in your reloading press which only adjust diameter.
Lyman, RCBS, and Saeco make lubrisizing presses which size and lubricate in a single operation. The sizing die is chosen by it's inner diameter, and is readily replaced when you wish to work on a different bullet.

If you have no difficulty chambering your cartridges, you probably don't need to reduce the diameter of your bullets.
But, you can still lube them in a lubrisizer if you choose a sizing die which is the same diameter as your as-cast bullets.

CM
Retired...twice. Now, just raisin' cows and livin' on borrowed time.

paravil
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Re: Would appreciate help with swaging

Post by paravil » Wed May 20, 2015 1:49 am

OK ... I´ve understood that. So `swaging´ seems to be out of the question (although I suppose it would make a more `professional´ looking bullet). And I suspect I´d have to have a sizer made to the calibre I had my mold (mould) made to.

I really am grateful for all your help! (I´m an ex-Para and this is my first BP experience)

Patrick

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montana_charlie
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Re: Would appreciate help with swaging

Post by montana_charlie » Wed May 20, 2015 10:41 am

paravil wroteCOLONI suspect I´d have to have a sizer made to the calibre I had my mold (mould) made to.

Just for general information, this webpage shows all of the sizers offered by Lyman for their lubrisizers.
http://www.lymanproducts.com/lyman/bull ... g-dies.php

It is also within reason for a do-it-yourselfer to buy a slightly undersized sizing die, and hone it out to the desired diameter ... when that size is not regularly available.
OR ... Lyman, and a number of small shop machinists, will turn out custom sizing dies for a reasonable price.
I really am grateful for all your help! (I´m an ex-Para and this is my first BP experience)
I find it gratifying to be able to give you something helpful. (I'll remember that you are an ex-Para if I ever need information on parachuting ...)

CM
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paravil
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Re: Would appreciate help with swaging

Post by paravil » Wed May 20, 2015 11:06 am

Think I´ll try Lymann´s local rep to see if they can make one the same size as my bullets (as I´ve got the carbine accurate with them).

I can recommend jumping with rounds .... still do it on commemoration jumps (this was at the Arnhem Bridge .... where I b*ggered my eye)
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montana_charlie
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Re: Would appreciate help with swaging

Post by montana_charlie » Thu May 21, 2015 11:22 am

paravil wroteCOLONI can recommend jumping with rounds ....
Rounds, squares, or rectangles, I will continue to gain knowledge of the activity via reading.
About the closest I will ever come to the real thing is using a bumbershoot in a stiff breeze.

CM
Retired...twice. Now, just raisin' cows and livin' on borrowed time.

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