Ideal .40 cal weight.

Discussion of BPCR loading techniques, SAFETY, Case Cleaning and Prep, Indexing, BP Choice, Primers, Wads, Compression, Drop Tubes, Vibration, Load Testing, etc.
macca
PostsCOLON 163
JoinedCOLON Tue May 26, 2009 5:46 am
LocationCOLON Australia

Re: Ideal .40 cal weight.

Post by macca » Tue May 23, 2017 8:14 pm

Hi Mal
before you go Brooks check out the mould selection at Baco. Also does your chamber have leade and freebore. Ive found a tapered bullet works well in that type of chamber where as a non tapered bullet tends to work well in a chamber with no leade and freebore. That may help with your bullet selection
Cheers macca
A Sudoku a day keeps alzheimers away ........I think

Hahndorf1874
PostsCOLON 23
JoinedCOLON Mon Sep 03, 2012 7:56 pm

Re: Ideal .40 cal weight.

Post by Hahndorf1874 » Wed May 24, 2017 3:25 am

Hi Macca,
My RB is one of 9 actions that came in from NZ ,originally from the Swedish forestry dept,all but one were chambered with the same reamer and all had Douglass barrels fitted.All were set up for breach seating ,all of them shot very well with the right diet,I have shot mine in a machine rest which I have ,it was a bench rest rail set up 6mmPPC .It shot almost one hole at 50 mts But more than double that at 100 .snover 400 gn pill 70gns Wano P, breach seated ,biggest hassle with the snover @ 20/1 hard to BS,I hope to have access to the Brooks mould as my mate may be buying one of the RB,it comes with the brooks.Will give that a try in the rest if it comes off.I have shot it with fixed with some success ,will try again with Wano PP this time.

Cheers Mal.

macca
PostsCOLON 163
JoinedCOLON Tue May 26, 2009 5:46 am
LocationCOLON Australia

Re: Ideal .40 cal weight.

Post by macca » Wed May 24, 2017 4:38 am

Hi Mal,
If your rifle is chambered for breech seating then it has leade and probably freebore. Hence a grease groove tapered bullet will work fine. Snover (not tapered) in my Brownings a complete failure yet shot consistent 100's in my Pedersoli Sharps. I would recommend you look at Sku: JIM409395C4 which has the first two driving bands reduced (409 diam 395 gn creedmoor) or Sku: JIM409400M4 (409 diam 400gn money bullet with first three driving bands reduced) Could shoot fixed or breech. JIM409420M4 this one Id probably buy as a replacement for my PJ mould if I ever needed to.
Cheers macca
A Sudoku a day keeps alzheimers away ........I think

Singleshot S.A.
PostsCOLON 97
JoinedCOLON Sun Aug 30, 2015 6:19 pm
LocationCOLON Adelaide. Sth Oz.

Re: Ideal .40 cal weight.

Post by Singleshot S.A. » Mon Sep 25, 2017 6:27 pm

bruce moulds wroteCOLON
Tue Apr 25, 2017 1:46 am
singleshot sa,
possibly you don't listen when people tell you things.
possibly you fail to define what you need to know.
possibly you don't recognize people that do know.
possibly you don't recognize good advice when you get it.
I have found a number of south ozzies that know a lot, and will give willingly and freely.
you do them an injustice.
keep safe,
bruce.
Bruce, I sit and listen intently to the answer when I ask a question.
I asked a specific question here, and you failed to answer it or even offer your opinion, rather you chose to berate me on an International forum.
I do know many people who, I believe, know what they're about. it just seems to me that if I'm not prepared to spend a small fortune then it's not possible to find a consistant load. In that I mean, how many molds do I have to buy, how many types of powder do I have to try. ( Wano @ $65.00 +. Swiss @ $100.00 +. Custom Steve Brooks mold landed here $350.00 - $400.00). Certain people tell me that the Pedersoli is the only way to go, others, "don't waste your time".
Since this original post, I have changed Clubs and am now shooting on a weekly basis with a more competitive group, Obviously some of those you speak of and yes I am learning more.

It's hard to know what to do when there are conflicting arguments / suggestions.

Some say.. never ever compress your powder, others show beautiful groups shot with compressed loads. :(
I am happy to report that the Pedersoi RB / Green mountain is coming along. Now achieving consistant
10 shot 2 inch groups with half of those touching, useing a Boomer money mold that I had forgotten I had in the cupboard. Now trying a borrowed BACO.

Thanks to all the advice and suggestions guys, I do enjoy the sport and this forum and no offence intended to Bruce.

PS... I recently purchased a locally built, proven shooter, and have ordered the appropriate mold from Steve Brooks (as specifically designed for it by one of our S.A. guys.) So.... I'll have the rifle, the sights, the bullet, the lube, not sure about Swiss powder though at it's current price. :shock: hopefully I can shoot it.

Cheers S.s, S.A.

Singleshot S.A.
PostsCOLON 97
JoinedCOLON Sun Aug 30, 2015 6:19 pm
LocationCOLON Adelaide. Sth Oz.

Re: Ideal .40 cal weight.

Post by Singleshot S.A. » Mon Sep 25, 2017 6:29 pm

Brent wroteCOLON
Tue Apr 04, 2017 6:26 pm
Well, I'll be in your neck of the woods in a half year or so. I'd be glad to help with whatever I can. I'll be muzzleloading on this trip, but the two games are really pretty similar. I even use the same bullets and powder charges in both types of rifles.

Anyway, I'm looking forward to visiting Adelaide and seeing the sights and shooting the championships.

Brent
Getting close now Brent. Hopefully see you at Monarto.

Thanks for the offer.

Singleshot S.A.
PostsCOLON 97
JoinedCOLON Sun Aug 30, 2015 6:19 pm
LocationCOLON Adelaide. Sth Oz.

Re: Ideal .40 cal weight.

Post by Singleshot S.A. » Mon Sep 25, 2017 6:38 pm

kokomokid wroteCOLON
Sat Mar 25, 2017 8:38 am
I had good luck with the lyman snover at 20/1 but took three moulds to find correct dia for my 40. Fouling control with your 32" bbl may be more important than bullet nose at 200 yds.
Thanks for that remark.

I often think that the last two or three inches of barrel are a little dry when wiping.
I did change my lube to the New Emmets with Anhydrous Lanolin and there was an improvement, then went to wiping with 1 x wet, 1 x damp, no dry, which I believe tightened up the group for some of the shots.

When I start to shoot the new purchase, I will change over to the new lube recipe that came with the rifle.
I do believe that a shortened barrel might be advantageous.

Cheers S.s.S.A.

bruce moulds
PostsCOLON 85
JoinedCOLON Mon May 04, 2015 11:47 pm

Re: Ideal .40 cal weight.

Post by bruce moulds » Wed Sep 27, 2017 3:53 pm

sssa,
apologies for making you feel berated.
however ther are good shooters who will offer good advice in s.a.
that said there are no free lunches in this game.
you are right i offered no advice, and will do so now.
firstly you need to know your chamber and barrel dimensions.
the diemeter of the chamber for this purpose can be established from an annealed case fired multiple times.
the internal diamoter of that case should be the cast diameter of your bullet with greasers.
when you finger seat such bullet it will have a slight friction fit.
should the chamber have freebore, the part of the bullet that goes ther should have a similar friction fit.
hopefully this dimension is the same.
if the freebore fit is a little smaller than the case fit, then sizing the case a little will suffice, to get the slip fit.
seating depth experiments should start with the front band touching the leade angle, and try longer and shorter, looking for a trend.
if no freebore then reduced bands can be handy to increase case capacity.
the 100 to 200 yd shooting you mention does not require the nose of a long range bullet.
good alloys for cartridge guns are usually between 20:1 and 16:1.
look for a bullet length that will give a stability factor (Sg) of 2.0 to 2.3 as calculated on the berger or jbm calculators.
this might well be shorter than a 400 gn pointy bullet for a 16 twist.
primers can make a serious difference. large pistol match and large file of various types should be tested with and without paper under tham.
they must be seated correctly to the bottom of the pocket.
saeco moulds should hold enough lube for any useable barrel length. adjusting the lube should help.
wano p series is good powder.
experience has shown it to shoot as well as swiss.
for shorter range droptubing alone can be sufficient, but as range increases, compression can reduce the verticle that starts to appear.
only experimenting will show this.
when breech seating compression is unnecessary, but droptubing is. it must be to do with the airgap.
if droptubing fails to fill evenly, the difference will be very small if done well.
column height can be adjusted by compressing the high ones. it will be less than 0.010".
should it be more, weighing cases might suggest big differences in capacity.
2 to 3 gns difference in case weight makes little difference to capacity.
annealing cases will allow them to blow out closer to chamber dimension than hard ones.
this will improve capacity consistency.
your ability to shoot will affect results on the target.
consistent hold, correct foresight element for target, wind, light, and eyesight all come into this.
a visit to flinders vision can be worthwhile.
fixed ammo can shoot very cloe to breech seated when done right, so it is wise to focus on one or the other until the best result is achieved.
wads should be experimented with.
the two obvious places to start are ldpe and veg, but milk cartons can also be of advantage.
barrel condition must be absolutely consistent from shot to shot, or all is wasted.
sometimes a little oil in the barrel helps, and this can come from not fully removing all the cutting oil fluid, just most of it, when wiping.
obviously others will get best results doing things other than suggested here.
which only proves that there is more than one way to skin a cat.
keep safe,
bruce,

Hahndorf1874
PostsCOLON 23
JoinedCOLON Mon Sep 03, 2012 7:56 pm

Re: Ideal .40 cal weight.

Post by Hahndorf1874 » Thu Sep 28, 2017 5:07 pm

Thanks Bruce,
Good advise ,if this forum had a sticky section this would be worthy of inclusion.



Cheers Mal.

bruce moulds
PostsCOLON 85
JoinedCOLON Mon May 04, 2015 11:47 pm

Re: Ideal .40 cal weight.

Post by bruce moulds » Fri Sep 29, 2017 1:56 am

thanks mal.
i wouldn't go that far - it was just an attempt to answer a question.
another piece of advice for the budget minded.
measure chamber, barrel bore and groove, transition angle, and case dimensions, and it will tell you what mould to buy for fixed ammo.
that will most likely be not a lyman, because you will end up buying multi moulds.
cheaper to go to baco or brooks, buy once, with known dimensions, and no more money to spend.
not only does this save money on moulds, but powder, primers, barrel life, as well as a LOT of your valuable time.
keep safe,
bruce.
edited to add.
to successfulley breech seat greasers, a seater like the webber that can use leverage force to seat the bullet is an unwritten necessity.

Singleshot S.A.
PostsCOLON 97
JoinedCOLON Sun Aug 30, 2015 6:19 pm
LocationCOLON Adelaide. Sth Oz.

Re: Ideal .40 cal weight.

Post by Singleshot S.A. » Sat Sep 30, 2017 4:25 pm

Great advice Bruce.

All is forgiven. :)

bruce moulds
PostsCOLON 85
JoinedCOLON Mon May 04, 2015 11:47 pm

Re: Ideal .40 cal weight.

Post by bruce moulds » Sat Sep 30, 2017 6:47 pm

ian,
some further thoughts on bullet length.
any spin stablized device has 2 kinds of stability.
the first is the one we can calculate, and is called gyroscopic stability, representd by the symbol Sg.
the Sg number of 1.5 is often quoted as optimum with modern ammo, while in theory at 1.0 theoretical stability occurrs.
1.5 allows for some spin decay, which in a 308 palma bullet has lot 20% of its spin at 1000 yds as established by the US military at one of their proving grounds.
it also gives reassurance in wind shear and other such conditions.
Sg is well understood by scientists and ballisticians, as well as the space and aeronautical industries.
there is also dynamic stability, a thing much less understood and calculatable to this day.
the only real solution to poor dynamic stability is to spin the bullet harder for a given length.
dynamic instability problems are at their worst in the transonic zone, just where our bullets travel between the muzzle and 600 yds.
luckily for us this is where our bullets have max spin, as opposed to a 308 which has lost spin as it goes into the top of the transonic zone. mach 1.2 down to mach 0.8.
even then our bullets have max spin nearer the muzzle, so we can get away with longer bullets for twist closer to the muzzle.
a bullet that is stable at 100 yds might have a few little wobbles further out.
a flying spin sablized bullet has a thing called the overturning moment.
this is the distance between the centre of pressure and the centre of mass.
the longer this distance, the faster you have to spin the bullet to keep it stable.
pressure is on the nose, and is at it greatest in the transonic zone, giving the bullet its greates overturning moment there.
for long range shooting, 400 gn 40 cal bullets have proven to require a twist of 14" or faster to work under all conditions likely to be encountered, and then need to be driven by at least 80 gns of powder to keep the spin up.
this is why you look for an Sg of 2.0 min for sil ranges and 2.3 plus for palma ranges.
keep safe,
bruce.

macca
PostsCOLON 163
JoinedCOLON Tue May 26, 2009 5:46 am
LocationCOLON Australia

Re: Ideal .40 cal weight.

Post by macca » Mon Oct 02, 2017 6:05 pm

Hi Bruce
Unfortunately I dont have a 1/14 barrel mine is a stock 1/16 Badger. The two bullets in the pic below are what I shoot. On the RHS PJ money bullet at 407 and on the LHS is the Lyman at 383. (both with 10.5 on Brinell hardness scale) They are both shot with exactly the same load. Both exceptionally accurate at 100m. The PJ also at 200m. Hopefully in the next month or two I will be able to test the accuracy of both out to 600. I have had the money bullet shoot into the low 90's on the TRA 500m target at 500m. I have a feeling the spitzer might be quite accurate in good conditions at longer distances.
Cheers Ian
bullets.jpg
bullets.jpg (89.14 KiB) Viewed 3092 times
A Sudoku a day keeps alzheimers away ........I think

bruce moulds
PostsCOLON 85
JoinedCOLON Mon May 04, 2015 11:47 pm

Re: Ideal .40 cal weight.

Post by bruce moulds » Mon Oct 02, 2017 8:51 pm

hi macca,
that lyman looks like it carries a wing of lube.
does the money bullet allow use of more powder than the spitzer?it will be intersting to see how your bullets go at longer distances.
obviously the money will have a greater b.c..
what is its Sg?
if it is a good mould it will give good concentric bullets, a great aid to stability.
the real problems start to rear their heads at 900 and worse at 1000, and worse in changy conditions.
i have a brooks mould like your spitzer and it is quite good close, but after 300 it just keeps getting worse.
what is the tra 500m target?
keep safe,
bruce.

macca
PostsCOLON 163
JoinedCOLON Tue May 26, 2009 5:46 am
LocationCOLON Australia

Re: Ideal .40 cal weight.

Post by macca » Tue Oct 03, 2017 5:07 am

Hi Bruce,
The load for the two bullets is identical in the RP cases I am using. (64.5gn 2P, metre drop tube no compression necks sized to 410 id and bullets sized to 409 od - basically the surface is lightly polished). I don't shoot the rifle past 600m. Further out I pull out the Browning 45/90 with a 540 gn PJ money bullet (slip fir projectiles over 90 gn 1P). Blowing some starline cases up to size. looks like I'll have to shoot them with a grain less powder to get the same oal.
cheers Ian
A Sudoku a day keeps alzheimers away ........I think

bruce moulds
PostsCOLON 85
JoinedCOLON Mon May 04, 2015 11:47 pm

Re: Ideal .40 cal weight.

Post by bruce moulds » Tue Oct 03, 2017 2:54 pm

here are some numbers posted by a guy called beltfed arnie re 16 twist 40 cal bullets.
he has done a lot of work on 40 cal twists and bullets and is always worth listening to.
he has found an elliptical nosed bullet, cast fairly hard to avoid nose slump, 1.325" long to be reliably stable in a 16 twist all the way out.
having just shot out a 40 cal barrel, mostly with ellipticals, i am finding a comparison with a 45 cal money bullet most interesting.
both bullets starting at 1300 fps track virtually the same trajectory out to 880 yds, when the money starts to need more comeup.
this is also the first firing distance that is truly subsonic, as opposed to transonic.
could the money nose have more drag than the elliptical at subsonic velocities?
or was there a big variance in atmospheric conditions.?
shooting again will add more data.
that load of 90 gns in the 45/2.4" case seems to be around the mark with a paul jones tapered band money bullet.
mine seems to like that ammount of swiss 1.0 or 1.5 with the appropriate compression.
keep safe,
bruce.

BUTTON_POST_REPLY