45/70 Case Length Question

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gunlaker
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Re: 45/70 Case Length Question

Post by gunlaker » Tue Jun 01, 2010 9:23 am

montana_charlie wroteCOLON
HpGuy420 wroteCOLON If they are Winchester cases, I would agree with Dan. But, if they have some meat in the wall, they can be stretched .020" - .030", or more.
CM
CM, fireformed Starline cases shorten quite a bit in my C. Sharps 1885 in .45-70. They start at around 2.095" and end up at around 2.087". No chamber cast has been done, but fired cases generally have a pretty big lube ring on the case mouth.

The case expands above the web to 0.510". Will a case with that much expansion fit in the stretcher you designed?

thanks,

Chris.

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montana_charlie
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Re: 45/70 Case Length Question

Post by montana_charlie » Tue Jun 01, 2010 10:23 am

shooter37,
How long are those cases after having been fired?

If you normally run cases through a full length sizing die, you can recover most of what they lost at firing.
But, if you shoot fireformed cases (and many do) you probably have a new length to deal with...and see if it leads the throat.

CM
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Re: 45/70 Case Length Question

Post by gunlaker » Tue Jun 01, 2010 11:06 am

montana_charlie wroteCOLONHow long are those cases after having been fired?

If you normally run cases through a full length sizing die, you can recover most of what they lost at firing.
But, if you shoot fireformed cases (and many do) you probably have a new length to deal with...and see if it leads the throat.

CM
The average 2.087" after firing. I'd prefer to shoot partially sized cases, and I do get some leading right now with 20:1 bullets in lightly sized cases (my fl die backed off 5 turns, just enough to bring the case mouth down a bit, but keep the base of the case big enough to help keep things aligned). The situation is somewhat improved by full length sizing the cases, but I prefer to use a partial sized case for better alignment. I've been "solving" my problem by shooting hard bullets which I can get to shoot OK, but there is room for improvement.

I just wonder if your tool will accept a case that's expanded to 0.510" above the web area, or will that be too big?

Chris.

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montana_charlie
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Re: 45/70 Case Length Question

Post by montana_charlie » Tue Jun 01, 2010 1:33 pm

gunlaker wroteCOLON
montana_charlie wroteCOLONI just wonder if your tool will accept a case that's expanded to 0.510" above the web area, or will that be too big?
That's pretty fat. Does your chamber typically allow cases to reach that diameter...or would that be some 'other cases' you would like to deal with?
If you want to, you can send a couple to me and I can see what happens...or try to devise a method of 'prepping' them so they DO fit.
(I have an idea in that regard which would be a separate operation...but wouldn't cost you much to get the materials for.)

What brand are those 'fat' cases?

CM
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Re: 45/70 Case Length Question

Post by gunlaker » Tue Jun 01, 2010 2:09 pm

montana_charlie wroteCOLON That's pretty fat. Does your chamber typically allow cases to reach that diameter...or would that be some 'other cases' you would like to deal with?
If you want to, you can send a couple to me and I can see what happens...or try to devise a method of 'prepping' them so they DO fit.
(I have an idea in that regard which would be a separate operation...but wouldn't cost you much to get the materials for.)

What brand are those 'fat' cases?

CM
Unfortunately all of 'em come out that way, regardless of brand. Even my Marlin's don't generally expand a case that much and they are known for "generous chambers". This rifle has given me more grief than any other for load development, I imagine some of that, at least, is due to the chamber. I generally haven't been able to get it much under 2MOA with consistency. It is a beautiful rifle though. I just wish I could get it to shoot as well as it looks.

I probably can't send you a case without problems from Homeland Security. I'm from Canada and it's an offense for me to send 'em into the country without paperwork. I found that out when I tried to send back a couple of bags or Remington brass with shallow primer pockets :evil: Fortunately I didn't find out the hard way :mrgreen: .

Chris.

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Re: 45/70 Case Length Question

Post by 4570win » Tue Jun 01, 2010 3:57 pm

Hi Chris do you still have those rem brass with the shallow primer pockets ?Are they 45-70, if you do how much do want for them ? I'am B.C. you can ship them to me. Thank Lorne

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Re: 45/70 Case Length Question

Post by checker » Tue Jun 01, 2010 5:01 pm

Good advice from Charlie & John Boy . I dripped candle wax on a dummy cartridge, and chambered it. The gap was between .032 & .034" to the end of the chamber mouth. Instead of shipping my reamer back to Dave Kiff @ PT&G to be modified, I carefully cut the chamber length dimension of the reamer on my lathe, set the shoulder back on the barrel and recut the chamber. Worked out very well. New Remington 45-70 brass @ 2.095-2.096" was measured using wax on a dummy cartridge, and the gap is gone, or maybe .0005-.001" remaining which I could not measure accurately. I shot two rounds and did not get any fine lead rings as before. In the morning I will get in some trigger time at the range, and pick up where I left off trying for an accuracy load. Tim :D :D

ps: Where are people getting brass that measure 2.100" + ?
I just received a couple hundred rds. of Remington brass, and the longest of all was only 2.097" (??), and 10% of them were 2.092 to 2.093" :| :D
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Re: 45/70 Case Length Question

Post by montana_charlie » Tue Jun 01, 2010 5:46 pm

gunlaker wroteCOLON
montana_charlie wroteCOLON That's pretty fat. Does your chamber typically allow cases to reach that diameter...or would that be some 'other cases' you would like to deal with?
If you want to, you can send a couple to me and I can see what happens...or try to devise a method of 'prepping' them so they DO fit.
(I have an idea in that regard which would be a separate operation...but wouldn't cost you much to get the materials for.)

What brand are those 'fat' cases?

CM
Unfortunately all of 'em come out that way, regardless of brand. Even my Marlin's don't generally expand a case that much and they are known for "generous chambers". This rifle has given me more grief than any other for load development, I imagine some of that, at least, is due to the chamber. I generally haven't been able to get it much under 2MOA with consistency. It is a beautiful rifle though. I just wish I could get it to shoot as well as it looks.

I probably can't send you a case without problems from Homeland Security. I'm from Canada and it's an offense for me to send 'em into the country without paperwork. I found that out when I tried to send back a couple of bags or Remington brass with shallow primer pockets :evil: Fortunately I didn't find out the hard way :mrgreen: .

Chris.
When I asked the 'how long after firing' question, I was addressing shooter37. We had been 'talking' for a while, and I didn't think anybody else was 'listening'.
When you (Chris) responded to that question, I didn't notice you were 'somebody else'.

Now that I realize who I'm talking to, I wouldn't have suggested sending cases to me...because I already know you are in Canada.

Frankly, it might take a 'custom built' stretcher to re-draw cases for your rifle, if you wanted the operation to be as straight-forward as it is supposed to be.
Will a full length sizer die squeeze the case head down to .500" when you run a case all the way in?

CM
Retired...twice. Now, just raisin' cows and livin' on borrowed time.

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Re: 45/70 Case Length Question

Post by gunlaker » Tue Jun 01, 2010 7:00 pm

montana_charlie wroteCOLONWhen I asked the 'how long after firing' question, I was addressing shooter37. We had been 'talking' for a while, and I didn't think anybody else was 'listening'.
When you (Chris) responded to that question, I didn't notice you were 'somebody else'.

Now that I realize who I'm talking to, I wouldn't have suggested sending cases to me...because I already know you are in Canada.

Frankly, it might take a 'custom built' stretcher to re-draw cases for your rifle, if you wanted the operation to be as straight-forward as it is supposed to be.
Will a full length sizer die squeeze the case head down to .500" when you run a case all the way in?

CM
Ha! Sorry about the confusion :D .

My full length die will bring them back down to around 0.500", but it takes some effort on the press handle. I've got a neck tuning tool coming and I"m going to try some cut down Norma brass once it arrives (I need to thin the case mouth a bit for a .459" bullet). At least I ought to be able to get a fireformed case that's very close to the right lenth. The nice part about the Norma brass is that it comes "pre-expanded". I think the case walls are truly straight (i.e. no taper), so I can partially size them in a longer die and then trim them to length. I ought to be able to make them fit pretty well, although the diameter ahead of the web will still grow some.

If that doesn't show positive results, I think I'll park it in the safe a while and play with my other rifles while I think. :D

Chris.

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Re: 45/70 Case Length Question

Post by gunlaker » Tue Jun 01, 2010 7:03 pm

4570win wroteCOLONHi Chris do you still have those rem brass with the shallow primer pockets ?Are they 45-70, if you do how much do want for them ? I'am B.C. you can ship them to me. Thank Lorne
I've still got 'em, but I've been using them since I bought a primer pocket reamer :-)

Where abouts in BC are you from? I'm in the lower mainland and shoot at either the Poco club, or the range near Goldbridge.

Chris.

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Re: 45/70 Case Length Question

Post by 4570win » Tue Jun 01, 2010 7:49 pm

Im in Harrison Hot Springs. Im going to a shoot in Heffley June 11,12,13, It's allway a good shoot . I have some of those rem brass with the shallow primer pockets win large pistol primers with a wad works great. Thanks Lorne

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Re: 45/70 Case Length Question

Post by montana_charlie » Tue Jun 01, 2010 8:42 pm

gunlaker wroteCOLON
montana_charlie wroteCOLON Will a full length sizer die squeeze the case head down to .500" when you run a case all the way in?
My full length die will bring them back down to around 0.500", but it takes some effort on the press handle.
Sometimes, a guy doesn't need to (depends on his chamber), but I always recommend that cases be full length sized before stretching.
If you can size yours down, they can be run through the standard Kal-Max stretching jig.
The instruction manual explains why it happens, but cases are always too fat to chamber when you're done stretching.

Since you already size with your die backed out of the press, you will easily grasp the concept (explained in the instructions) for finishing up with 'fireformed' case dimensions.

Once stretched, your cases could remain at .510" forever without causing a problem.

If this news causes you to start comtemplating the purchase of a Kal-Max, remember that you also need a hydraulic porto-power set to make it operate.
Some more good news (for you) is...the Kal-Max jigs are built in Canada

CM
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Re: 45/70 Case Length Question

Post by gunlaker » Wed Jun 02, 2010 10:02 am

Thanks CM!

Chris.

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Re: 45/70 Case Length Question

Post by Kurt » Sat Jun 05, 2010 8:06 am

There are other things that contribute to leading than short cases. Chamfer your case mouth is a good place to start. If you feel the GG catching when you seat the bullet chances are you are shaving lead when you seat that bullet and it deposits those shavings in the throat and beyond .
Also you want to remember if you have a case that fits tight at the 45 degree wall at the chamber end, when that round goes off the bullet upset and the powder column will pull the case forward up over that chamber end and it will give you a problem too.
There is a fine line that you have to keep the case mouth back from the chamber end to allow that brass to work. (stretching and spring back.)

Kurt
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Teddy Roosevelt.

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Re: 45/70 Case Length Question

Post by Etienne Brule » Sat Jun 05, 2010 2:03 pm

DRCook wroteCOLON ...

Unless a reamer has been erroneously ground, the chamber will always be longer than 2.100 to provide clearance. So you can figure that 2.100 will be a good length to start with.

...
DC
Hi, what would be the ideal lenght: max chamber lenght MINUS x thousands ?

DRCook wroteCOLON ...
AND, if you fireform your cases and do not FL resize after each usage, you will be surprised at how much they actually shorten when fired
...
DC
Hum, I was thinking that the case would be longer after each usage ...

It is not clear in my mind... ( A new thread maybe ?? I do not want to highjack this great thread )


Thank you for your attention.

Etienne Brûlé

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