leading problems

Discussion of BPCR loading techniques, SAFETY, Case Cleaning and Prep, Indexing, BP Choice, Primers, Wads, Compression, Drop Tubes, Vibration, Load Testing, etc.
Mike Bateman
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leading problems

Post by Mike Bateman » Wed Mar 19, 2008 4:05 am

Guys
I recently acquired a Browning 1885 from a forum member in 45/70. The rifle is immaculate and a credit to its previous owner. However I am experiencing slight leading using the following load. Bullet, Saeco 480 gr # 645, it drops out at .459" or .460" in 20-1 alloy. 65 gr of 2f Wano a .030 overpowder wad and Federal 210m primers. Bullets a a slip fit in the fireformed case and I run the loaded round into the f/l case sizer to provide a little neck tension. I am shooting the bullets either unsized or running them through a Lyman .459" sizer. In order to reduce the leading should I size the bullet to .458" or change to 30-1 alloy. I am using SPG lube and wipeing between shots.

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Ironramrod
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Post by Ironramrod » Wed Mar 19, 2008 6:29 am

Mike B.,

You might try using a blow tube for fouling mgmt. instead of wiping for your gg bullets for a short experiment. I run full house loads in exactly the same rifle you are shooting, and only get some lead sparkles with a blow tube. Leading gets somewhat heavier if I wipe between shots (wet patch/dry patch).

Regards

Mike Bateman
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Post by Mike Bateman » Wed Mar 19, 2008 6:53 am

Ironramrod
Thanks for the reply, As the rifle came with a blow tube I tried that, mainly to see if it shot better with blow tubeing or wipeing. It may well have reduced the leading a bit but the groups went from about 2" at 100 mtrs to about 6". As the main events at my range are paper targets at 100 and 200 mtrs group size is critical. As I am still working up a load for the rifle, no doubt will do better than 2", once I find out what it likes. I may try a different bullet like the Paul Jones 500gr Creedmore at a later date. All suggestions are gratefully received, I would rather not re invent the wheel wherever possible.

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Post by Brent » Wed Mar 19, 2008 7:11 am

Paper Patched Bullets NEVER lead. :)

Brent

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Post by Ranch 13 » Wed Mar 19, 2008 8:02 am

You might want to try changing the seating depths, and see if closer or farther from the lands might change things up a bit.
Also try doubling the wad for .060 just to see if that helps, might be getting excessive blowby , due to the slip fit in the case mouth.

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montana_charlie
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Re: leading problems

Post by montana_charlie » Wed Mar 19, 2008 10:48 am

Mike Bateman wroteCOLONGuys
I recently acquired a Browning 1885 from a forum member in 45/70. The rifle is immaculate and a credit to its previous owner. However I am experiencing slight leading using the following load.
Do you know the exact depth of your chamber up to the angle where the throat begins? Is your (fireformed) brass fully as long as the chamber depth?
I am shooting the bullets either unsized or running them through a Lyman .459" sizer.

If you have not polished out the bore on that sizing die, it is probably reducing your bullets to about .458" If they were cast from Lyman #2 alloy (the Lyman 'standard' for all cast bullet tools), there should be enough 'springback' in the harder alloy to have them come out at .459". But with your 'soft' metal they probably don't...spring back, that is.
The difference may not cause your leading, but it is something you might want to look at.

I shoot thumb-seated bullets in fireformed brass, but I have an actual .460" sizing die to lube them in...
CM
Retired...twice. Now, just raisin' cows and livin' on borrowed time.

martinibelgian
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Post by martinibelgian » Wed Mar 19, 2008 12:02 pm

Running the loaded round in the sizer might additionally reduce bullet diameter - maybe try and shoot some bullets as cast, pan lube if needed.

Mike Bateman
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Post by Mike Bateman » Wed Mar 19, 2008 5:12 pm

Thanks everyone.
I did try the bullets unsized, with no better result. I use the Lyman Lubesizer with the .459" insert because I am waiting for a Lee sizer to arrive and had nothing else to use. I don't use it to lube the bullets, I pan lube them. The .459" die in the Lyman luber barely marks the bullet, if at all. My previous rifle had a chamber that was .015 longer than the 2.10 cases I was using, this caused a thin ring of lead to be deposited in the chamber and some in the barrel. That problem was cured by trimming a new set of cases. All I am getting at the moment in the high wall is leading in the barrel. I will have a chamber cast done if all else fails, but for the moment I would like to explore the simpler options. No comment has been received on my 30.1 alloy idea, does this mean it is not worth the trouble ?. By the way, the rifle came with a bag of .060" plastic wads and I tried them as well, same result. Currently the OAL of my cartridge is 2.880" and when chambered it is engraved by the rifling about two thirds into the first driving band of the bullet. I have just loaded another 20 rounds with the bullet seated .010" deeper in the case to try that.

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Kurt
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Post by Kurt » Wed Mar 19, 2008 9:11 pm

Now that the snow is starting to melt I been recovering some of my test bullets.
I have recovered 69 out of the 140 that are still buried in the deep snow drifts in my back yard.
One of the things I wanted to find out what bullet diameters alloy hardness, and wad thickness causes blow by gas cuts that contribute to leading with paper patched and grease groove bullets.
I haven't found a lot of the ones that interests me the most yet but I have found some of the hard alloyed, 1/20 and 1/18 GG bullets.
The 1/20 with a .060 fiber wad with the bullet set back from the land .010 had a lot of gas cuts on the base band and 2 nd from the bottom.
The ones I engraved .010 into the land using the .060 fiber and a the ones using a .023 card wad showed no signs of gas cuts.
Using a .060 plastic wad showed no signs of gas cuts with the bullets set back or engraved.
I only found one GG bullet so far that I breach seated using 1/40 alloy and a .023 card and that bullet was clean.
Two GG bullets engraved .010 with an alloy 1/40 using a .023 card They had no gas cuts.
I still havent found a bullet yet using a plastic wad cut from a ice cream bucket that are .028.
My wads are cut .001 over groove diameter, and the GG bullets are groove diameter. .408, .446. .458. and .510.
The Paper patched are patched to .001 under bore to .005 over bore when using a breach seater.

By the way you PP shooters.
I'm finding the cup based with a .068 rim and pure lead to 1/16 alloy show less base damage then the flat base bullets.

Kurt

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montana_charlie
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Post by montana_charlie » Thu Mar 20, 2008 8:48 am

Interesting experiment, with interesting results, Kurt.
CM
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Kurt
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Post by Kurt » Thu Mar 20, 2008 10:13 am

C M

The bullets that show the worst distortion were fired from cases .010 short of the chamber length and they had the most lead in the chamber throat especially using bullets cast at 1/20 and harder.
Bullets fired with an alloy 1/30 and softer from a short case look like they have been stretched where the end of the case and the chamber end.
This is with the PP more so then the GG bullets.

Kurt

Brent
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Post by Brent » Thu Mar 20, 2008 10:21 am

Keep diggin' this is good stuff.

John Boy

Post by John Boy » Thu Mar 20, 2008 7:38 pm

I'm finding the cup based with a .068 rim and pure lead to 1/16 alloy show less base damage then the flat base bullets.
Kurt, are the groups any better with the cup base bullets?

Kurt
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Post by Kurt » Thu Mar 20, 2008 8:18 pm

John that's hard for me to compare too because there all different designs of lengths and ogives.
At this time the BA .44 (.428) I had Dave make for me and I see he now has them on his web page is the best shooter I now have and it's a flat base.
I'm now having him make a .50 (.492) but I could not talk him into making a cup base nose pour mould.
I'm going to put one of the Baco moulds on a surface grinder and take the block down and make a nose pour and I have a cup base plate just about made for it.
If that dont work I will have Corbin make a die that matches the bullet and use a cup base punch.
But getting a die made would take longer then I have patience to wait for.

Kurt

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Post by Rambunctious » Sun Mar 30, 2008 5:45 pm

Mike,

What martinibelgian said about not running the loaded rounds through the sizing die again is true. Been there and did that and it caused leading in my rifle. When you put pressure on a bullet that's in the case it compresses the bullet but the case will spring back a little. When you're done you still don't have any neck tension AND the bullet is squeezed down, maybe well under groove size. When that happens you get the blowby that causes leading.

I wasn't doing that to apply neck tension, but to better the concentricity of the loaded round. Still, a real bad idea.
"Take it easy"

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