Vernier sight

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Rantheman
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Vernier sight

Post by Rantheman » Thu Jul 06, 2017 11:03 pm

I have always wanted a 45-70 and I acquired one about 4 years ago( buffalo classic) and I liked shooting it but wanted a sharps. Got a Taylors company that came with pedersoli tang sight. I have read negative stuff about the pedersoli but I have no problem with it.
I live in coastal South Carolina and I managed to make a 500 yard range but until recently had no way to get 1000. Few months ago loggers clear cut some of the property and now I can get 1000 but my problem is how to sight it in. On my old range I would sight in 100 yd increments until I hit target then go to next 100 until I got that zeroed, up to 500. Wrote the markings down so. Could go back anytime. Worked for me
The problem now is, the cut down is so rough you can't drive a tractor or ATV on it so , other than walking a target to 600, then 700, then 800, etc. and using the markings as I have been, it's going to take an awful lot of bullets to hit at 1000 since there is no reference to missed shots. No way can you see where they are hitting because of the tangle and debris and the huge ruts made by logging machinery, not to mention the swamp, snakes, and godawful mosquitos the will eat you alive.
I have looked at a couple of videos and read what I could find and I know what moa is. But I am having a hard time understanding how much to move the eye cup. I know what 500 is but how do I figure what 1000 will be. Can't use how many marks were between each successive hundred because the bullet drop will be much more pronounced at , say 800 , than it was at 200 so counting marks and projecting a cumulative won't work. Any ideas on how to figure it out!

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Ranch 13
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Re: Vernier sight

Post by Ranch 13 » Fri Jul 07, 2017 7:08 am

Add about 12 minutes for every 100 yards beyond you last know sight setting.
Depending on the height of your front sight the setting will likely be somewhere between 180 points on the staff and 205.

Premod70
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Re: Vernier sight

Post by Premod70 » Fri Jul 07, 2017 7:10 am

The redneck way would be to build a hide at the thousand yard target (a very big target) and get a friend to spot the rounds for you. With a walky talky to communicate and you spotting the occasional debris that will fly up it should not be too hard to get a zero. The other way involves a chronograph and numerous triangulation comparisons between the sight and the actual bullet fall. Good luck and be safe if you try the "hide" method.

bruce moulds
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Re: Vernier sight

Post by bruce moulds » Fri Jul 07, 2017 7:19 am

you have sight settings from 100 to 500 in 100 yd increments.
as you understand moa, you will be able to calculate moa in relation to marks on the sight from a measured sight radius.
on most sights, 0.010" is known as a point, and is usually about 1 moa, but the actual moa depends on sight radius.
if you can use a chronograph to measure the muzzle velocity you then have an opportunity to get the sight setting, or close to, that you want for 1000.
by typing in the muzzle velocity and different b.c. to a trajectory calculator like jbm ballistics, you will find a trajectory like the one you have.
this then gives you the b.c. of your bullet.
use that b.c. and your muzzle velocity to then generate a chart out to 1000, which should get you on a big target.
try b.c. numbers (g1) between 0.3 and 0.5 for a start.
even if you get the elevation right, it does not take much air movement to deflect a bullet off a big target at 1000.
keep safe,
bruce.

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Re: Vernier sight

Post by Ranch 13 » Fri Jul 07, 2017 7:33 am

Of course at 1000 yds, there's no way folks that aren't there can help you account for mirage and wind affects...
If you give us your 500 yd setting, I may be able give you a setting from one of our 45-70's that would be close.

Rantheman
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Re: Vernier sight

Post by Rantheman » Fri Jul 07, 2017 10:41 am

Thanks for the answers. The hide idea is actually a good way but I don't think I could talk anybody into that. Using my known increments to postulate the longer range would be good but one would have to be a little sharper than I am, never did pass math in high school or college. I took pictures of the sight with it set on my 500 setting but there is no way this 73 year old brain can figure how to get it here for you to see. I don't know how people get photos on here! Always intrigues me when someone posts photos. I will list my settings and I am sure you will know what they are:
The five on the eyecup slider is aligned with the first line under the number 1 and the zero on the slider is aligned with the 3/4 on the staff. Hope I explained that correctly
If somebody can tell me how to get picture on here I will try it. I have an iPhone and an iPad and have actually learned how to turn them on and make telephone calls, but that is about as far as my antiquidated brain will allow

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Ranch 13
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Re: Vernier sight

Post by Ranch 13 » Fri Jul 07, 2017 10:54 am

You have to upload your picture to photo bucket or similar then you can use the picture link to post pictures here.

Plainbase
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Re: Vernier sight

Post by Plainbase » Fri Jul 07, 2017 2:58 pm

You can use a photo from your computer directly without going through some other server. Right below the reply box I'm typing in now are 2 tabs that say Options and Attachments. Click the Attachments and then the box that says Add files. Then find your photo on your computer click Open and follow the instructions.
Plainbase

Plainbase
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Re: Vernier sight

Post by Plainbase » Fri Jul 07, 2017 3:04 pm

You might check this out these sight instructions also: http://www.tmtpages.com/vernier.htm
Plainbase

bruce moulds
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Re: Vernier sight

Post by bruce moulds » Fri Jul 07, 2017 5:43 pm

some things to consider when shooting 1000 yds.
wind deflection will be in the order of 1.5 moa per mile per hour of wind with a fairly slippery bullet at reasonable velocity
that is with a wind at 90 degrees, 3 or 9 o'clock.
at 1, 5, 7, and 11, o'clock, that will be halved.
spindrift will put your bullet about 2 moa to the right of a 100 yd deadwind zero,
if you go just over the 1000 yd palma target, come down 5 points . I think this target is about 6 feet tall and 8 feet wide.
you really need to understand reading a vernier sight and be comfortable doing so.
you might need to come up about 75 points from 500 to 1000, but this will depend on b.c. and velocity.
in 45 cal, any bullet less than 500 gns , and with a high drag nose is playing with yourself.
you need a deadwind zero so you can add or subtract points from a known setting to allow for wind.
another way to work out your sight adjustments is to shoot at least a 10 shot group at 100.
then come up 10 or 20 points and shoot another group on the same target.
from centre to centre of each group will tell you what 1 point is on your sight with some easy maths.
you need a rifle/load/shooter combo that can group 2 moa at 100 or preferably better to have a chance.
such grouping at 100 in moa will be bigger at 1000.
2 moa at 1000 is about 20", and this is quite good day in and day out.
your target, foresight, and rear sight must suit each other and your eye. matching these things can take quite a bit of work.
elevation on the sight will be require a 1 moa difference from 990 yds to 1000, meaning that your 1000 yds must be accurately measured.
hope this helps.
keep safe,
bruce.

bruce moulds
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Re: Vernier sight

Post by bruce moulds » Fri Jul 07, 2017 7:31 pm

another thought.
1 moa is actually 1.047" at 100 yds.
in practice, this can be thought of as 1" at 100 yds.
when calculating comeups however, this becomes accumulatively more relevant as range increases.
considering that you might have 130 minutes of comeup from 100 to 1000 it needs to be taken into account, and your points might not be inches or moa.
moa is merely used as a point of reference for universal reference.
130 x 0.047 = 6" difference on the target at 1000 yds.
add a similar potential difference in points due to sight radius and that could become at least a foot.
keep safe,
bruce.

Rantheman
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Re: Vernier sight

Post by Rantheman » Fri Jul 07, 2017 11:23 pm

Ok, I am getting a clearer picture but still having trouble grasping how much value the marks are. I took advice on how to add an image but every time I try to get it posted I get a file too large message.
Anyway , Bruce tells me I may have to come up 130 points but there are not that many marks on the staff. Clearly , I am not understanding how to count the marks. I can see that once I grasp this it will be easy to use but I just don't see how I can come up 130 when there are only about 65 marks on the staff. Please bear with me and explain it. I think I can get it

Rantheman
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Re: Vernier sight

Post by Rantheman » Fri Jul 07, 2017 11:40 pm

I just read the link " how to read vernier sight scale" again and I think I got it this time. The marks on the slider will give 5 points for each mark on the staff. It's finally getting through. Could not have figured this out without you gentlemen's help. Up until now I was using the sight totally incorrect. Was using the top of the slider as the reference point and aligning it with marks on staff.
As far as wind, that was never a problem because the range I built is between rows of tall pines and they act as windbreaks. Now that the pines have been clear cut,wind is indeed going to play a significant role. I was getting kind of cocky because after trying many bullet styles and powder charges I had found pretty good combination and was doing pretty good at 500, averaging about 20" groups with some coming in at 12"to16" before the inevitable flyer. Not quigley's by any means but made me happy. I can see now that it's going to be a whole different ball game and no doubt I will be back begging for direction.

Fogman01
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Re: Vernier sight

Post by Fogman01 » Sun Jul 16, 2017 8:28 pm

Why make it hard? I have used the Hornady ballistics calculator to give me MOA out to any range I want in any increments I want. Also gives x wind and head/tail wind correction. I don't have a chrony so I used a nominal 1200 to 1300 fps and .4 ballistics coefficient. Got me on paper. You could input the data and use 500 yards as your zero range and it will tell you how many MOA to add to your 500 sight setting for any increment you want past that. Also if the terrain is rough, I bought one of those Caldwell target cameras and use it to see where my bullets hit when I am shooting the gong targets on my 500 yard range. (I know, if I could just hit the gong everytime it would swing and I wouldn't need a camera) The camera has a pretty wide field of view and it sends a signal back to my phone, iPad, or laptop so I can see where the bullets hits. It has a recording feature so I can record the shot while I shoot and play it back to see where in the dirt it actually hit. If I am by myself trying to shoot then look the bullet has already hit by the time the smoke clears. By playing the short recording I can see the bullet hit. For paper it is so clear it looks like I am shooting a 50 yard target instead of 500 yards. And since it sits up near the target there is no mirage getting in the way. Saves a lot of going back and forth or having to bring along another person to squint through my spotting scope.
http://www.hornady.com/ballistics-resou ... calculator

Fogman01
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Re: Vernier sight

Post by Fogman01 » Sun Jul 16, 2017 8:31 pm

Shiloh has a pretty good handout showing how the vernier marks on the left relate to the increment marks on the right on a vernier sight. Maybe call and ask them for the handout.

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