MVA midrange at 1000?

Discussion of BPCR rifles and shooting accessories, including range equipment.
Brent
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Re: MVA midrange at 1000?

Post by Brent » Sat Jan 25, 2014 7:00 am

Dan, you are, as usual hallucinating, with what chemistry I can only guess.

Just about everything in your post is wrong and you know it. And to point of the matter, a Money bullet would have to have a BC 0.25 higher than the alternative to produce a trajectory that is 20 MOA flatter, never mind 25 MOA flatter - and thats if the alternative is a flatnosed hunting bullet. You know that, I know that, and just about everyone with a shred of experience knows that. And we all know that ain't happening. You live in a chemically induced dream world of internet adulation, but the real world it ain't.

If we look at just an reasonable long range bullet of which there are many, they have a BC of about 0.5. To be just 20 MOA flatter with a typical launch velocity of 1300 fps, your haloed money bullet would need a BC of 0.9 - which of course happens only in your dreams.

So back to your bottle or explode in your typical infamous fashion, I don't care. Your so full of BS, you could fertilize all of California in one shot.
I'm not from here, I just live here.

Brent
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Re: MVA midrange at 1000?

Post by Brent » Sat Jan 25, 2014 7:11 am

westerner wroteCOLONThinking about purchasing a new MVA sight. Rifle is, will be 45-90, 30 inch barrel. Don't recognize the front sight. Looks low to me. Might change the front sight too. Rifle has a long range sight on it now. Think I'll get the MR MVA Soule sight for silhouettes. Can switch to the LR sight when shooting LR. Would prefer a MR, if it will work.

Joe.
Joe,
Sadly, I think your thread is about to blow sky high, but in any event, get the Midrange sight and get a 200 yds zero with it and then most folks here will be able to tell you approximately what you are going to need to reach the 1000 yd line in Missoula. 74s have a lot of drop in the wrist so they don't make this comfortably, and you will be right on the edge - if you have a low front sight. Most quality front sights that you want for long range have a bubble level and that means they usually have a little extra elevation to them which makes all the less likely that this is going to work at long range.

You say the rifle has a long range sight on it already. I'm am guessing this is a non-Soule sight or a lower quality sight. Don't drive all the way to Missoula and shoot with less than the best. You will regret it.

And good luck there, it is a hell of a beautiful range.
I'm not from here, I just live here.

HpGuy420
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Re: MVA midrange at 1000?

Post by HpGuy420 » Sat Jan 25, 2014 8:06 am

Brent wroteCOLON
Just about everything in your post is wrong and you know it. ......
Why don't you ask Al if his LR bullet with no grease grooves didn't shoot 25 MOA flatter than his PJ Creedmoor from the 1,000-yd line. And, from much experience coaching good shooters shooting both the 540 PJ Creedmoor and the 540 PJ Money Bullet I can say with confidence that the Creedmoor requires about 25% more wind correction than the Money Bullet from the 1,000-yd line.

From live-fire experiments from the 1,000 yard line, the difference between the Money Bullet's grease grooves and standard PJ or Brooks grease grooves is about 9 MOA of elevation difference, in favor of the Money Bullet. Between the PJ Creedmoor and Money Bullet noses there is about 11 MOA in favor of the Money Bullet when both are fired from the 1K-line with the same 75.0 grains of Swiss 1.5 out of the same rifle, a Browning 45-70 that produced the same MV for both bullets. So we are back to the assertion that the Money Bullet is capable of shooting about 20 MOA flatter from the 1,000 yard line. Bob Tarkington also did the same test from the 1,000 yard line and got the same results. Hey, same results two times by two independent experimenters; so, can we call it the Money Bullet Theory???:-))) Oh, IIRC Arni Moos was pulling my target that day. Why don't you call both of those boys so you can call me a BS'er once again. Snark off. You've done that a few times in the past and had to wipe egg off your face every time.
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Deadeye Bly
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Re: MVA midrange at 1000?

Post by Deadeye Bly » Sat Jan 25, 2014 8:09 am

I faced this situation last year and the general consensus was that a mid-range would not work to 1000 yds. I only had a short time to deal with. I had a long range sight that I had made that did not have a lot of windage and it was somewhat crude but I put on the rifle anyway and got a 200 yd sight setting. I went to the 1000 yd match and got sight settings on the sight in day. I shot the match and luckily I only missed once at 1000 yds. It turned out that the sight settings would have worked with the mid range sight that was on the rifle to start with. It was a Ukranian sight and they have about 1/4" more vertical elevation than the MVA.

While a mid-range sight may work you are working near the end of the movement and conditions may need more vertical that just is not there. I've since picked up a long range Hoke sight at a nice price and I won't have to worry about it any more.

Brent
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Re: MVA midrange at 1000?

Post by Brent » Sat Jan 25, 2014 8:15 am

Dan, ol' chum, I don't call anyone, ever. Just another of your fables, like the rest of your post. Your tales are BS like no other. All of them. There is no way your precious money bullet is 20 MOA, never mind 25 MOA flatter than any other reasonable long range bullet. They aren't even 11 MOA flatter shooting. It just aint true, no matter how many times you say it or who pulls your target. Your credibility is shot anyway, so I guess you don't have much to lose.

Meanwhile, what difference does it make anyway? Okay, lets hear about the miracles of wind bucking that your bullet supposedly has. Another myth. It's just another bullet. A good one, but not a miracle bullet.
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HpGuy420
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Re: MVA midrange at 1000?

Post by HpGuy420 » Sat Jan 25, 2014 8:22 am

Brent wroteCOLON...It's just another bullet. A good one, but not a miracle bullet.
I never said it was a "miracle" bullet. But, for sure and for certain, it will require about 25% less cranking on the windage knobs compared to the PJ Creedmoor.

It should be said that the exterior ballistics software, we have access to, does not work well in the transonic range. The late Dr. Robert McCoy, who wrote the FORTRAN code used in most civilian exterior ballistics software said the results can be off by 20%.

gunlaker
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Re: MVA midrange at 1000?

Post by gunlaker » Sat Jan 25, 2014 10:15 am

The primary issue with ballistics software is that the underlying assumption is that the bullet behaves like the standard G1 projectile. There is only one parameter ( ballistic coefficient) that essentially scales drag from the base curve. That this is good is a huge assumption. I'm working on some software after reading McCoy's book to see how close I can get to making it work for my bullets. I think the only real way to get a good simulation is to get enough data to generate a new curve rather than using the G1 tables.

Joe, I wouldn't take the chance on a midrange sight. My Shiloh needs .97" just to reach the rams. ( mind you I have a 34" barrel ).

Chris.

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Ranch 13
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Re: MVA midrange at 1000?

Post by Ranch 13 » Sat Jan 25, 2014 10:27 am

Ballistic software doesn't take into consideration the light, wind and mirage either..
I understand what Joe is trying to do, it is a pain in the arse to find a hat that will fit a long range sight and still be worn in a comfortable position. With a bit of luck that 185 minutes available on the MVA will get him to 1000, but there's no real way to know without actual shooting.

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Re: MVA midrange at 1000?

Post by Ranch 13 » Sat Jan 25, 2014 10:32 am

gunlaker wroteCOLONJoe, I wouldn't take the chance on a midrange sight. My Shiloh needs .97" just to reach the rams. ( mind you I have a 34" barrel ).

Chris.
Chris just using the avg of 15 minutes per 100 yds you would still reach the 1000 yd line and have 12 minutes left on an MVA midrange.
But the thing is and I can't recall whether it's in the NRA rules or the Whittington requirments, they have something like a 30 minute over the 1000 yd setting requirement for sights in the longrange matches. So trying to get by with a midrange even if it does work , might back fire if you get to the range and some ball baby cries and your sight gets a DQ.

gunlaker
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Re: MVA midrange at 1000?

Post by gunlaker » Sat Jan 25, 2014 10:59 am

That is cutting I pretty close. I'm pretty sure that my .45-110 could make it, as it uses quite a bit less elevation than the .45-70 as my 600m setting is less than my .45-70's 500m setting. Both shoot the Buffalo Arms version of the Money bullet, but the .45-110 is using a paper patched bullet while the .45-70 is a greaser. There is about a 200 fps difference in muzzle velocity too :mrgreen:

Chris.

Brent
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Re: MVA midrange at 1000?

Post by Brent » Sat Jan 25, 2014 2:31 pm

Ranch 13 wroteCOLONBut the thing is and I can't recall whether it's in the NRA rules or the Whittington requirments, they have something like a 30 minute over the 1000 yd setting requirement for sights in the longrange matches.
This is news.
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Brent
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Re: MVA midrange at 1000?

Post by Brent » Sat Jan 25, 2014 2:49 pm

HpGuy420 wroteCOLON
Brent wroteCOLON...It's just another bullet. A good one, but not a miracle bullet.
I never said it was a "miracle" bullet. But, for sure and for certain, it will require about 25% less cranking on the windage knobs compared to the PJ Creedmoor.

:wink: :wink: :wink:



:roll:
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Ranch 13
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Re: MVA midrange at 1000?

Post by Ranch 13 » Sat Jan 25, 2014 3:52 pm

Brent wroteCOLON
Ranch 13 wroteCOLONBut the thing is and I can't recall whether it's in the NRA rules or the Whittington requirments, they have something like a 30 minute over the 1000 yd setting requirement for sights in the longrange matches.
This is news.
Well it probably is to you, but anybody with the booklet from last years national bptr match saw it on page 14 of the Championships book. :wink:

George Babits
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Re: MVA midrange at 1000?

Post by George Babits » Sat Jan 25, 2014 8:20 pm

I have a RifleSmith mid-range on my 40-70 SS rolling block and it gets a 410 grain flatpoint to the 1000 yard gong just fine with straight black powder loads.

George
Salmon, Idaho

Kurt
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Re: MVA midrange at 1000?

Post by Kurt » Sun Jan 26, 2014 6:30 pm

I have two rifles that will make the 1K with a MVA midrange sight with a MVA 113 front. The .44-2.5 BN will make the 1K using a 500 gr KAL elliptical or the 480 gr Brooks prolate as well as a BA GG postell.
The .50-2.5 with a mid range and the MVA 111 will make the 1K with a Brooks 720 gr GG Creedmoor bullet and it has enough to be able to come up more. I think barrel rise from the recoil has something to do with that.
If you do want to use the MVA midrange you might consider turning the base around and that might be enough to get you there, but you might not get down enough for the 200 yard doing this.

Kurt

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