Brass length in Shiloh Sharps 40-65

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SgtDog0311
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Brass length in Shiloh Sharps 40-65

Post by SgtDog0311 » Sun Dec 11, 2016 2:02 pm

Looking for a vector check if you'd be so kind... I'm assuming Shiloh's chamber is essentially a tight 40-65 WIN chamber. I've done a chamber cast and took measurements and have those numbers, which are close enough to this diagram that I figure I better go with those -- but I'm wondering how they compare with real world and what brass length you fellahs find optimal?

Math tells me 2.033 + .068 (my rim cut depth) for a total of 2.101. How does that jive with your case lengths?

Whatever I do I don't want to cut them short to start with.

I have been resizing 45-70 then running a .011 expander in the neck to get it as close to chamber size as possible before trimming. In another 40-65 I was loosing about .004 in length after first firing.
40-65 CD Winchester.png
40-65 CD Winchester.png (158.45 KiB) Viewed 2616 times

Premod70
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Re: Brass length in Shiloh Sharps 40-65

Post by Premod70 » Sun Dec 11, 2016 4:53 pm

I would trim after the first firing just to get all the cases to conform to one another.

Kurt
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Re: Brass length in Shiloh Sharps 40-65

Post by Kurt » Sun Dec 11, 2016 5:21 pm

Sgt.

I just measured my .40-65 chamber cast. Mine is a "standard", not tight. It is 2.0842" from the front of the rim.
My fired Starline .40-65 case never trimmed run 2.0776 +- a couple thousands and the rims run .062".
The .45-70 Win cases are 2.111" and the rims thickness is .068"
I would say fire for effect.
"Complaining about a problem without posing a solution is called whining."
Teddy Roosevelt.

SgtDog0311
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Re: Brass length in Shiloh Sharps 40-65

Post by SgtDog0311 » Sun Dec 11, 2016 7:41 pm

Thanks Kurt. Looks like I'm dealing with a little longer chamber. I wonder if I'm correct in my assumption on Shiloh's 40-65. I know my chamber cast showed 1 hour after that the length from the rim to the mouth was between 2.033 and 2.340. Adding my rim made mine longer than yours. Appreciate the input regardless.

Arnie
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Re: Brass length in Shiloh Sharps 40-65

Post by Arnie » Sun Dec 11, 2016 7:57 pm

What ever you do ,don't cut them too short .Most modern guns have a bunch of Lawyers dictating that chambers be cut deeper than spec and cases made shorter than spec to keep from blowing the rifle up . Not a one of my 40/65 rifles have a chamber that actually 2.100 .Most go from 2.118 to 2.165 .On the longer chambers I have to stretch 45/70 cases and then form them to 40/65 .Of course with Black powder ,I doubt you caould blow one by trapping the bullet with too long of a case .What you would see is a slight rounding at the mouth of the case .

gunlaker
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LocationCOLON British Columbia

Re: Brass length in Shiloh Sharps 40-65

Post by gunlaker » Sun Dec 11, 2016 11:03 pm

i'm using 2.107" long brass in my Shiloh. If I go any less than 2.105" I sometimes see a very very thin lead ring. When I start with new brass I leave them longer than the chamber and fire them twice. Then I trim them to final length. Actually I do trim my brass a bit after forming them from .45-70. Sizing them down lengthens them quite a bit so I trim them enough to chamber.

Chris.

SgtDog0311
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JoinedCOLON Thu Sep 17, 2015 9:58 am

Re: Brass length in Shiloh Sharps 40-65

Post by SgtDog0311 » Mon Dec 12, 2016 8:51 am

Thank You Chris, Arnie, Every thousands counts since I can't be sure how much it will shrink initially. I've got the lead rings. Initially attributed it to the wrong thing but know the cause now.

I was shaking my head a couple times yesterday. I was really surprised to find I could chamber a 2.123 with only a little help from the bolt.

Knowing it had to be rolling over like Arnie says - even though hard to see at the mouth - I marked it with a marker several times - really trying to interpret scuffs, then figure close as I could 'how much' it was rolling over .

I finally settled on 2.106 after building a dummy round and looking at LAND imprint on the front driving band. But I think I'll heed Chris and add a couple more thou. I know I risk sizing bullets down as they leave the case by bumping that 45* but can't be significant for this exercise.

One thing I did notice when chambering one of the two bullets was that my runout is significant. Heaven forbid chamber alignment! Even a shorter bullet looked to engrave more on one side and further onto the band. The longer bullet was obvious at a glance. Anybody using inline dies? I got one for my 308 but have never used one for cast. If so, do you have any recommendations, Vickerman, Meacham, other maker?

And a question on minimizing runout with what I currently using: does the amount of neck tension increase the chance of runout. Seems like light neck tension would pose less risk but just a guess. Thanks guys... don't mean to hammer the questions.

gunlaker
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Re: Brass length in Shiloh Sharps 40-65

Post by gunlaker » Mon Dec 12, 2016 9:26 am

In my rifle I'm shooting two bullets, both slip fit with zero neck tension. The first is the BACO 409400M4 which has three reduced driving bands. A good portion of the bullet is in the bore, and it fits the fireformed cases well enough that the bullet can't be wiggled side to side. I think it has pretty good bore alignment, much like a PP bullet. I also shoot a slip fit Saeco #740 bullet. Interestingly it does not fit the fireformed cases very tightly, but perhaps the nose shape fits the leade angle well as it's super accurate at 200.

Once the weather warms up I'm going to spend some time with the Saeco bullet to see if I can, with a tiny bit of neck tension ( expander same size as the bullet ), reduce the muzzle velocity variation, as I'd like to try using this bullet at 300 yards and save the Money bullet for 500 and 600.

Chris.

SgtDog0311
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JoinedCOLON Thu Sep 17, 2015 9:58 am

Re: Brass length in Shiloh Sharps 40-65

Post by SgtDog0311 » Mon Dec 12, 2016 11:03 am

Thanks for the info Chris. I've looked at both those bullets and pinching pennies now for the BACO.

I bought a Paul Jones over on ASSRA. I didn't do a lot of research before saying I'd take it and may not have been a smart buy for my rifle. From reading hear and over on Shiloh I'm thinking it may prove too long for a 16 twist. It is 413gr naked but 1.4475 long. Consensus appears to be against it for length. Shot nice round holes with my first load development but that was at 50yds. I like the look of the bullet but may have to recycle it on the market if it shows wobble on paper at longer distance.

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