old eyes, open sights, and groups

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spurdude
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old eyes, open sights, and groups

Post by spurdude » Sat Nov 19, 2016 11:07 pm

sorry if this gets too long. I went out a few times last week trying a bunch of random loads I put together trying to get that 1MOA at 100 yards. I'm working on trying to post a picture of the target. Anyway I'll describe what results I have. Target is a 6" red pasty thingy on a oversized piece of cardboard at 100 yards. Gun is a pedersoli 1874 sharps 45-70 Gov. shot 30 rounds of different loadings. Got maybe 8 -10 flyers that I choose to ignore. All the rest of the shots either hit some part of the red ( 8 or so) the rest were all around the 6" red pasty thing I would say honestly an 8 inch grouping of the remainder shots. Now all things considered for a hunting situation I think not a bad showing, however if I ever wish to hit anything out to 200 yards or more this won't do. Maybe some of the rounds might work but not expecting any miracles at this point. now to the questions. The gun is fitted with the stock blade front sight and a Arisaka (Japanese) vintage Ladder sight Adapted to fit the sharps rear barrel in place of the stock ladder site which I find too small with my 64 year old eyes. This Japanese site when folded down presents a pretty nice semi buckhorn site picture. Being a hunter first I was taught to hold at 6 o'clock so as to not block my target with my front site. That being said When you guys use a globe front site do you not "cover up" your target some what obscuring it? Also with a Soule type tang site , which I see is the industry standard for target shooting, All things being equal If switched to the tang/globe set up should I expect my groups to tighten just by changing sight? I know $64000.00 question.

gunlaker
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Re: old eyes, open sights, and groups

Post by gunlaker » Sat Nov 19, 2016 11:46 pm

If shooting a round target I can shoot much tighter groups with a good quality globe front and Soule rear, as long as I'm using a well sized front aperture.

This might be because I rarely use a front post and a hunting style rear sight, but it makes a very big difference for me.

Chris.

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Ranch 13
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Re: old eyes, open sights, and groups

Post by Ranch 13 » Sun Nov 20, 2016 8:48 am

I'm going to jump out on a limb here and suggest if you are shooting 8 inch groups at 100 , it's a better chance the load needs some serious adjustment than the sights not getting their job done.
Could possibly be your fouling control method, or lack of, that is causing the large groups.
Are you calling the fliers?

Brent
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Re: old eyes, open sights, and groups

Post by Brent » Sun Nov 20, 2016 9:31 am

I'll agree with Chris, BUT, I would not use a Soule for hunting. I have done it, but a vernier, transition sight is a whole bunch better simple because you cannot easily move the windage inadvertently. With a Soule this is very possible, even likely.

For hunting with a tang sight, which is the norm for me, I prefer a thin post and small bead, though a simple thin post is fine too. I will usually set it up so the bullet lands on the top of the bead, if that makes sense. So, I don't cover much of anything if I'm shooting at the sighted range. Of course holding high or low for other distances can change that, but it works well for me to have the tang sight set for something like 180 or 200 yds and the barrel sight set for half of that.
I'm not from here, I just live here.

spurdude
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Re: old eyes, open sights, and groups

Post by spurdude » Sun Nov 20, 2016 10:27 pm

not calling the flyers. the group was shot using 5 or 6 totally different loads, different bullets and powder weights. some did group in the 2 - 3 inch range others 4-6 inch. I wish I could get the target picture uploaded, having trouble connecting to my web server. anyway what I thought I was looking at was a consistency of shots. I would have preferred to have them all in the 6" red target dot. I am going to switch to a globe front sight and see if there is any change. and also try to fine tune the loads. Thanks.

mrhunterken
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Re: old eyes, open sights, and groups

Post by mrhunterken » Mon Nov 21, 2016 7:25 am

That is not a good way to establish your marksmanship skills, shooting totally different loads at the same target, to get 1 group :shock: . A globe sight, with a post and a tang sight is a good combination. I usually try for a 6 o clock hold.
NRA Life (Patron) Member, USMC League Shooting Team, NRA Certified Range Officer. Proud Owner of a.44/77 .45/70, .45/90,.50/70, .50/90, 2 Trapdoors. and a host of others :!: :!:

Premod70
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Re: old eyes, open sights, and groups

Post by Premod70 » Mon Nov 21, 2016 8:33 am

The first consideration is if you see the front sight as a crisp and sharp image while being able to see the target defined. If not no iron sight setup is going to give you good results. At your age the possibility of sighting errors increases so a better choice for my tired eyes was the installation of a Leatherwood 6x Malcolm scope. The scope is a cheaper alternative than most of the high end sights and for me does the job at hand, that is hitting the target.
Also, what are you trying to accomplish by shooting batch loads at targets. No batch load is going to beat a refined single load. For years the gun rags preached having a rifle that would shoot various loads at the same point of impact was a necessity for a hunting rifle, pure crap, a sure way to miss your target when hunting unless you can get the animal to stand at the precise distance the various bullets intersect. Shooting one load and knowing it's impact point works best. Good luck with your venture.

Deadeye Bly
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Re: old eyes, open sights, and groups

Post by Deadeye Bly » Mon Nov 21, 2016 10:01 am

I think you should use a black bullseye target instead of red for open sights. Red works OK for scopes but irons work best with black. Use a post front sight and a 6 o'clock hold. Yes, a tang sight may probably tighten your groups but not as much as you might think. A hunting tang sight should be small and simple with a large aperture. I know from experience. Work up a good load with decent fouling control and you should be shooting 3" sized iron sight groups easily and that is adequate hunting accuracy.

Arnie
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Re: old eyes, open sights, and groups

Post by Arnie » Mon Nov 21, 2016 8:11 pm

Are you seeing the front and rear sight clear ? If not ,like me ,I use a pair of glasses with a piece of tape in the upper left corner of the right lens .The tape has a small hole in it to sight through and it really clears up open barrel sights .They even make stick on aperature to accomplish the same thing .

spurdude
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Re: old eyes, open sights, and groups

Post by spurdude » Tue Nov 22, 2016 6:15 pm

Ah, Here is the target picture http://www.powderhombre.com/imagepage.htm

spurdude
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Re: old eyes, open sights, and groups

Post by spurdude » Tue Nov 22, 2016 6:21 pm

All the different loads were shot at the same target , but the results of each individual load group were recorded separately. does that make sense?
And I can see the target clearly as I have great far sightedness. The rear sight is rather clear, however the front sight becomes the one that is hard to see unless it is painted white. That is why I chose the Bright red target contrasted against the white sight.

Kurt
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Re: old eyes, open sights, and groups

Post by Kurt » Tue Nov 22, 2016 8:16 pm

Your answer might be with a pair of these glasses.

Image

They helped me quite a bitt. I went to my ophthalmologist and told him make a lens for my right eye that will let me see as far out as possible and still get a sharp focus at 38" . He did it. I see the front sight sharp and still see the 1K fuzzy but clear enough when I look past the front sight. The left lens is for infinity so I can see the number boards.
But looking at the holes on your target I don't think that it's your eyes. You have to do more load development. Or work on controlling the rifle.
"Complaining about a problem without posing a solution is called whining."
Teddy Roosevelt.

Rantheman
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Re: old eyes, open sights, and groups

Post by Rantheman » Sat Nov 26, 2016 12:06 am

These 72 year old eyes have same problem. I switched to open sights several years back and had no real problems until I got into the old ways. Wanted that 45-70 shot and got the soules and globe and was hitting 12" or 16" out to 500. But, first time I actually hunted, when deer got there at 150, the globe totally obscured deer at 150 and I missed. That happened 3 times and ( I was 69 then) I had never missed before. Globe and vernier great for target or buffalo In Wyoming , bad for deer in South Carolina . Will not use scope again, unfair, but changed to leaf and post for 100-200 yard shots. Same rifle, just have to use a little Kentucky windage

mrhunterken
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Re: old eyes, open sights, and groups

Post by mrhunterken » Sun Nov 27, 2016 8:53 am

Kurt, that's a nice buff mount, those specks give it lots of class, kinda like Professor Tatanka. :lol:
NRA Life (Patron) Member, USMC League Shooting Team, NRA Certified Range Officer. Proud Owner of a.44/77 .45/70, .45/90,.50/70, .50/90, 2 Trapdoors. and a host of others :!: :!:

spurdude
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Re: old eyes, open sights, and groups

Post by spurdude » Sun Nov 27, 2016 11:11 pm

thanks guys, I definitely have some work to do. I can hit the side of the barn, just not the door knob. I'll keep ya all posted as I'll be asking a few questions soon.

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