fire forming starline cases

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tdroo
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fire forming starline cases

Post by tdroo » Thu Sep 03, 2015 2:55 pm

First timer here! I was ready to load some fire formed cases and discovered they opened up to much. Now my cast bullets drop in with little resistance. I was told that I shouldn't resize because they are only used in that specific gun. Help :(

Marlin38
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Re: fire forming starline cases

Post by Marlin38 » Thu Sep 03, 2015 4:04 pm

I don't full length size the cases after firing but was never able to get any good accuracy without some neck tension. I use a neck sizing die only.
There will be guys who say you don't need to size your case at all, this may work for them but it does not work for me. I look at the most accurate guns in the world (smokeless and Benchrest) and they all use neck tension.
I have no doubt that you will receive a bunch of replies saying to go one way or the other. The only way to work out which one is correct is to try them all out in your rifles.\


Dave

martinibelgian
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Re: fire forming starline cases

Post by martinibelgian » Thu Sep 03, 2015 10:07 pm

Sounds normal - that how they should be. Bullet sits on top of the powder (or rather overpowder wad), and is hard into the rifling while being a slip-fit in the fireformed case. You weren't thinking of seating the bullet off the rifling, were you? Usually doesn't work well with a fireformed case.

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montana_charlie
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Re: fire forming starline cases

Post by montana_charlie » Fri Sep 04, 2015 11:51 am

tdroo wroteCOLONNow my cast bullets drop in with little resistance. I was told that I shouldn't resize because they are only used in that specific gun. Help :(
A little resistance is all they need. Once you add the bullet lube they will be inclined to stay 'suction seated' on the wad after you thumb them in and wait for any trapped air to escape.

If you need them to withstand 'rough handling' during a hunt, a slight taper crimp can be added by pushing the loaded round up into the full-length sizing die a little way.

CM
Retired...twice. Now, just raisin' cows and livin' on borrowed time.

TexasMac
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Re: fire forming starline cases

Post by TexasMac » Fri Sep 04, 2015 12:18 pm

tdroo wroteCOLONFirst timer here! I was ready to load some fire formed cases and discovered they opened up to much. Now my cast bullets drop in with little resistance. I was told that I shouldn't resize because they are only used in that specific gun. Help :(
What rifle and caliber?

Wayne
NRA Life (President's Council) Member, TSRA Life Member, NSSF Member
Click on http://www.texas-mac.com/index.html to my home page containing information on my Browning/Winchester BPCR book & associated articles.

COBPTR
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Re: fire forming starline cases

Post by COBPTR » Fri Sep 04, 2015 12:45 pm

Just adjust your seating die to the minimal amount down where it doesn't crimp but takes out the flare that keeps it from chambering.
Turn it a little, try to chamber it, turn it a little more, try to chamber it sort of thing.
I would also recommend engraving with that loose of a fit. Something has to center the bullet up if you're not using neck tension.
My bullets can spin but won't fall out of the case. I also just pull the seater plug out of that die. Or adjust it to where it just kisses the top of the bullet just in case I forgot to compress powder as a reminder.


Robert G.

tdroo
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Re: fire forming starline cases

Post by tdroo » Sat Sep 05, 2015 11:22 am

Not planning to hunt with the rifle. Just working up some loads and hopefully get to shippenburg to try some silhouette. Thanks all!

45bpcr
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Re: fire forming starline cases

Post by 45bpcr » Sat Sep 05, 2015 12:30 pm

TDroo,

We'd be happy to have you at Ridgway.
We always have the day before the match to practice and shoot for fun.

Craig

Lumpy Grits
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Re: fire forming starline cases

Post by Lumpy Grits » Mon Sep 07, 2015 2:59 pm

Look at annealing those case mouths also.
FWIW: I full length resize my .45-90 cases in a .45-110 die. Doesn't work the brass as much as the .45-90 die does, and my target sez it was the 'rite' thing to do.
LG
"Having you along, is like losing two good men"

Hombre0321
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Re: fire forming starline cases

Post by Hombre0321 » Mon Sep 14, 2015 2:41 am

Marlin38 wroteCOLONI don't full length size the cases after firing but was never able to get any good accuracy without some neck tension. I use a neck sizing die only.
There will be guys who say you don't need to size your case at all, this may work for them but it does not work for me. I look at the most accurate guns in the world (smokeless and Benchrest) and they all use neck tension.
I have no doubt that you will receive a bunch of replies saying to go one way or the other. The only way to work out which one is correct is to try them all out in your rifles.\


Dave
Dave I shoot both Bench Rest and long Range Bench Rest as well as BPCR. I was shooting no neck tension in BPCR back as far as 1998. You cannot compare Smokeless Shooting Competitions in any shape or form to Black Powder Competitions, or the loading technique of each.

I came to shoot no neck tension or a slip fit bullet in BPCR because I am a study of all accuracy no matter the discipline. Back around
the time that Black Powder was the only game in town 1890's or so, almost all of the winning shooters of the day were shooting Breach Seated bullets, certainly no neck tension there. Also as I first started shooting BPCR there was a lot of talk about what and how much neck tension was best. So I tried an experiment on this premise : What is the "MOST CONSISTENT" neck tension any shooter can have. Another words I want every single bullet I shot to have the same exact neck tension. How can the shooter be sure? No die, and no hand loads ever have the exact same neck tension, you can get very close but not exact. The way I found that WAS consistent was no neck tension. So I stopped sizing my cases for this experiment.

At the time I was shooting a Meacham High Wall chambered in 45/90. I found out a few things while doing this little experiment. I hate "Have To's" when anyone says you must do this or must do that I resist every time. I did find a must do though. When loading Black Powder you must do one of two things to have consistent ignition of the powder, you must either have a good solid Neck Tension or you must have the bullet engage the rifling.

The loading of a slip fit bullet and the shooting of no neck tension can be a real pain in the butt. if for any reason you have to open the breach and eject your loaded round, 9 out of ten times you are going to leave the bullet in the bore as it is engaged into the rifling. You must take care of your loaded rounds because if you turn one up side down the bullet can fall out. Yes I do let the bullet lube hold the bullet in the case, problem with that is on a hot day that little trick is only so good. Also you must be aware of the column height when you are loading these rounds. Because the secret to this type of loading is really all in your powder column and wad stack, as it determines the correct OAL for that load. I also found that it didn't shoot a little better than a neck tension load, but it shot a LOT better. I am not saying that this is the only way to reload and shoot BPCR, I am saying that anyone who dismisses shooting a slip fit bullet and no neck tension just out of hand is cheating only there self.

As to "smokeless Bench Rest" It was proven at the "Old Houston Warehouse" years and years ago by Virgel King probably the greatest accuracy scholar of our time. No Neck tension in Smokeless loads works just great as a matter of fact there at the Warehouse as it was fondly called, shooting in NO WIND, there were 27 zero groups shot over the few years that the shooting took place there. If you are unfamiliar with the story of the Houston Warehouse it is great information do a search. Now think about that 27 zero groups, that is 5 shots at 100 yds and the group measured bullet diameter. Not all of those were shot with no neck tension but Mr. King is quoted as saying 11 were.

Loading a no neck tension round for any smokeless competition is very difficult. It gets back to the OAL of the loaded round. In Black Powder loading a lot of stuff goes into the empty case. A Wad or Wads I used 4 wads in all of my loads, then powder and then the bullet. Compressed loading is also common in Black Powder. I used all of that to determine my OAL of a loaded round. In smokeless loading there is only powder and bullet. Because the use of a wad can and will in time lead to a rung chamber in a smokeless round. Because of this it is all but impossible to use the Black Powder Method in the loading of a smokeless round. In smokeless shooting the only reasonable way to determine AOL is with Neck Tension. Most shooters today use anywhere from .0005 to .002 as there neck tension goal.

Also in Bench Rest shooting even at 100 yds the top tier shooters are using scopes of a min of 36 power and the norm today is much closer to 45 power. Also in that 100 yd Bench Rest game almost all shooters DO NOT preload for a match. They load at the range on match day and change there load to fit the conditions of the day.

You simply can not compare the two, the only thing that comes even close is the "BANG"

RS
Protected people will "never" be able to understand the intensity life can be lived at> to do that you must complettly and totally understand the meaning of the word "DUCK"

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