Naked, grooveless bullets

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Brent
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Naked, grooveless bullets

Post by Brent » Fri May 01, 2015 7:10 pm

Now that the BPCR website is up and running again, I thought it might be nice if we have a few different ideas to talk about. So, here is one I have been puzzling about, but have not tried. It might be a bit far out there, but until I, or someone else, tries it we can't know.

But this story starts back in the middle of this winter (bare with me for a bit), when I went out and bought a couple of those ultra modern rifles. Two of them in fact. They are ultra complicated for a guy like me but interesting enough. One is a sporterized Krag in its original .30-40 caliber. The other is a sporterized 1903 Springfield out of the Petrov collection. Crazy things they are too. I don't really know how to operate them, but then life is an adventure so what the heck.

I haven't shot the latter yet. But I've been shooting a bullet known as the 311284 in the former. It is pretty darn long for being just a .30 caliber and there is a really long bearings surface from the end of the ogive back to the first driving band. When conventionally lubed, there is at least 1/2 " or more of lead that goes down bore ahead of the first coating of lube. Yet this barrel never leads. Never. But I'm using Lee's Liquid Alox (LLA) or 60% LLA mixed with 40% Johnson's Liquid Floor Wax. I put 50 of the bullets in a Hershey's Chocolate Syrup can with a tablespoon of the lube, shake and then dump out to dry on a piece of wax paper. That skinny little bit of lube, which does not even come close to filling the grooves, gets the job done.

So, where this is going is why not try LLA or the 60/40 LLA/JLFW in a BPCR using a PPB without any paper at all? Of course the bullet would have to be sized to fit but say a .450-.451" bullet with this lube might work really well w/o any paper or any lube grooves. Best of both worlds so to speak. Obviously, this might not work with blow tubes. I'd bet against it actually, but where we are already wiping between shots, why not? The lube goes out the bore with the cleaning solution, so what the heck?

I'm not sure if water alone will be sufficient. It might be that the LLA will build up a bit, but perhaps alcohol will cut it and ethanol is miscible in H2O so that would be easy to do.

I have a a new .452" bullet that I will be wrapping for a groove diameter bullet. However, I think I can probably size it down to .450 and lube it and shoot it just to see what happens.

Anyone already tried this?
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montana_charlie
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Re: Naked, grooveless bullets

Post by montana_charlie » Sat May 02, 2015 9:07 am

Why not take a groove diameter grease grooved bullet (Creedmoor/Postell/whatever) and try the LLA tumble lube?

(By the way, what's JLFW ?)

CM
Retired...twice. Now, just raisin' cows and livin' on borrowed time.

Brent
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Re: Naked, grooveless bullets

Post by Brent » Sat May 02, 2015 9:23 am

Well mostly, I don't have a groove bullet for my .45s. And of course, the objective is to lose the grooves anyway.

JLFW is Johnson's Liquid Floor Wax. It does a great job of thinning the LLA in additon to helping with the lubricity issue.
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semtav
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Re: Naked, grooveless bullets

Post by semtav » Sat May 02, 2015 10:02 am

An interesting statement that I read recently on CB was that you dont get leading from bullet friction but by gas cutting. Not sure if I believe that, but it wold explain why you can run a partially naked bullet down the barrel of a gun without leading. It would all depend on how well the butt was sealed.

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montana_charlie
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Re: Naked, grooveless bullets

Post by montana_charlie » Sat May 02, 2015 10:29 am

I tried one of Theodore's grooveless designs.
It was a two-diameter bullet with the (Money nosed) front end being at bore diameter and a 0.3" long section in the rear at groove diameter.
Except for the nose shape, it was like the bullet on the right in this photo.

Image

The bullet was dipped in the 'dipping version' of White Lightning (different formulation than the pan lube/lubrisizer version) under very specific time and temperature parameters. Lube coated the entire bullet up to the break at the ogive.

The base was big enough to obturate before firing, so gas cutting should have been prevented.

I cast twenty-five, loaded fifteen, and shot six rounds.

The leading was incredible ...

Brent wroteCOLONWell mostly, I don't have a groove bullet for my .45s. And of course, the objective is to lose the grooves anyway.
I would think that the first object is to find out if LLA will get a chunk of lead through the barrel without leading.

Uhh ....do ya wanna a grooveless mould for a .45 rifle?

CM
Retired...twice. Now, just raisin' cows and livin' on borrowed time.

Marlin38
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Re: Naked, grooveless bullets

Post by Marlin38 » Sun May 03, 2015 5:00 pm

Brent,
Shooting with LLA works well with smokeless bullets and I can't see why (as long as you clean between shots) it would not work with black powder. I have been playing around with my 40 cal and a grooveless projectile with mixed results. I have been trying a baked on coating that completely covers the projectile and removes the need for any lube (or at least it does in smokeless). So far the results have been average but as we are now entering a quiet time in our shooting year I intend to try both the LLA and coated bullets further
Having said all that, as I don't like to wipe when shooting silhouette I will continue with my greasers for that match unless I happen to find that one of the combinations works just as well.
As a side note we "water" down the LLA with mineral turpentine to make it thinner.


Dave McCarthy

Brent
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Re: Naked, grooveless bullets

Post by Brent » Sun May 03, 2015 6:01 pm

Dave, the Mineral spirits will work to water it down but try the floor wax. I think it dries a bit faster and harder.
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Kurt
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Re: Naked, grooveless bullets

Post by Kurt » Sun May 03, 2015 7:19 pm

Brent

I can swage up a few .458 with a 1.5 S ogive and bring them to Lodi if I don't run out of time getting ready for this weekend. The bullet design was for a hunting bullet slightly knurled for use as a un patched bullet.

Kurt

Brent
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Re: Naked, grooveless bullets

Post by Brent » Sun May 03, 2015 7:27 pm

Kurt, I think I have a good candidate bullet. I just have to cast a few. I'm not sure why I want to do this- I guess just to find out.

Brent
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Kurt
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Re: Naked, grooveless bullets

Post by Kurt » Sun May 03, 2015 8:25 pm

Brent

I just ran 45 .444 through the swage and bumped them up to .4575". If you don't want them I will try them again. I tried this before with just rubbing lube on them and then lanolin. I light knurled then and tried several different lubes including dry lube and I just mined lead.
WD-40 has a product out I would like to give a try. http://www.wd40specialist.com/products/ ... aQodaTAA6g and revisit this again.
The deep knurled bullets shot well, but not the naked or shallow knurled.
Kurt

I might add: the less tin the less lead I dug out and shot with 1F uncompressed loads.
Last edited by 1 on Kurt, edited 0 times in total.

Brent
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Re: Naked, grooveless bullets

Post by Brent » Sun May 03, 2015 8:27 pm

Kurt, they won't even chamber in my rifles - at least not the target rifles. I want to try bore-diameter, and that's all that will fit in my main rifles.

Brent
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Hiwall55
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Re: Naked, grooveless bullets

Post by Hiwall55 » Mon Jun 01, 2015 9:49 pm

If anyone wants to try a grooveless bullet, I have 2 made buy steve Brooks to Dan T 's specs. They seem to be the same dimensions as grooved bullets but I have lube marked as grooveless , Have 1 in .358 and one in ,376. will sell both moulds and lube for $100 plus shipping. I think they are 1.5 in length. I was going to have them recut for p-p bullets. if interested I can email pics. Bill

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Re: Naked, grooveless bullets

Post by gunlaker » Mon Jun 01, 2015 10:52 pm

semtav wroteCOLONAn interesting statement that I read recently on CB was that you dont get leading from bullet friction but by gas cutting. Not sure if I believe that, but it wold explain why you can run a partially naked bullet down the barrel of a gun without leading. It would all depend on how well the butt was sealed.
Brian I don't think that guy is correct.

Here is why I don't believe it:

I got Steve Brooks to make me two nearly identical Creedmoor bullets for on of my .45-70's. One is a few grains heavier, but the primary difference is that one has a nose that is a little under bore diameter and the second has a nose exactly at bore diameter. The bigger nose leaves some lead in the bore but the smaller nose never does.

However I do think that gas cutting can be a cause of leading as I've gas cut a few PP bullets in my time :-).

It would be interesting to try some Alox on that nose and see if the leading goes away. I do know that smearing a very thin film of spg on the nose does no help.

Chris.

Kurt
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Re: Naked, grooveless bullets

Post by Kurt » Tue Jun 02, 2015 9:21 am

I ordered a Lee push through sizing die and in the shipment was a bottle of LLA. It was sitting up on the shelf for a long time and I decided to mix it in making some lube. After cleaning the rifle it was the last time I used that lube.

Brent
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Re: Naked, grooveless bullets

Post by Brent » Tue Jun 02, 2015 10:33 am

If you find the LLA a bit thick, you can thin it very well with Johnson's Liquid Floor Wax, 60:40 works well. I've been pushing bullets up to 2000 fps in my Krag and have yet to find a spec of lead anywhere. Works great in lever guns too.
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