50-90 paper patch bullet HELP

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50-90 paper patch bullet HELP

Postby straightneck » Tue Jun 24, 2008 5:23 pm

Looking for some bullets to try, before I invest in moulds or swage dies. The only .50 paper patch bullets I have found are .500 and .505 dia. I have tried these in 450,500,550,& 600gr. with 90 -115 gr. goex, schultzen, and swiss and got fair results. 2-3 in. groups at 100 yrd. My chamber has a short lead and no throat. I have not sluged the barrel but a .500 bullet will fall through. Does anyone know of a source for .493-.495 dia. bullets. OR :) is there anyone shooting .50 PP in this size that would be willing to let a person try a few and work out what they are worth in some way. Those .500 patch to .5065 and the .505 patch to .5115 that takes a lot of powder space and puts most ot the patch in those short starline cases :( . OAL 3.040 And I was still able to put(stomp)115 gr. swiss a wax paper disc .187 lube wad and a .012 top wad under 600 gr. and that the ones that were in the center. So I beleive when I find the diameter I need this C. sHARPS BOSS LADY and ME will really dance. YES the rumors about me and lude and lucivious behavior with a rifle are true. :twisted: :wink:

THANK YOU. Any help is welcome.
GOD-Girls-Guns made America Great : Sharps: Knock the stripes off a skunk at 500 yards
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Postby powderburner » Tue Jun 24, 2008 9:57 pm

E-MAIL ME AT ZB70045@ctnis.comI happen to have a couple bullets that might work for you....when you do let me know the twist in your barrel......Dean
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Postby Scota4570 » Wed Jun 25, 2008 9:31 am

I tried simmilar diameter bullets in my 50-90. They were not tapered and weighed 660 grains. They were cast of pure lead. I patched them with wet typing paper. They were loaded over a compressed load of 2F. The barrel is a lapped/choked Green Mountain; it shoots . The chamber fits the brass and the 0.512" leede is about 1/8" long. The lands taper at 2-degrees.

Results..........keyholes. I was hoping they would bump up, apparently they did not.

I shot some .450" groove diameter 380 grain swaged of pure lead wire last weekend. They patched up to about .460". I loaded them 15 years ago over 47 gr 4895 in 45-70. Last weekend they shot a litle over 1 moa.

I would like to hear how folks make the skinny bullets shoot well over BP.
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Still need Help from 50 shooters

Postby straightneck » Wed Jun 25, 2008 8:30 pm

powder burner, thank you for the reply. I can't get an e-mail to go to you.
I'll send you a PM
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Postby Orville » Thu Jun 26, 2008 8:11 am

S45-70
what is the twist rate of your gun? I shoot .494 bullets ,475 gr. my twist is 1-36 with a pp chamber, .526 at the chamber end. I'm not much on punching paper as this is a hunting rifle. Shooting golf balls at 50 yds is a blast and I have even hit one a 100 yds. I had no problem hitting the buffalo from 787 yds at the Q using barrel sights.
If your gun has the slower twist, 1-36 it will not shoot the longer bullets, upsetting is not the problem.
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Postby william dixon » Thu Jul 24, 2008 1:29 pm

Hi straightneck -

I just now saw your post about looking for PP bullets for your 50/90.

Have you solved that problem, or are you still hoping to "borrow" a few bullets from someone for a try? I'd be happy to send you a few of mine, if you still have the need.

I'm using the BACO .492", 650 gn, 1.44" 20:1 bullets, and I'm just a dumb new beginner, but these bullets never shot less than 1 1/2 MOA at 100 yards, and never worse than 3/4 MOA at 200. And I'm just now getting ready to move out to 300. And this is the load I'm using:

BACO .492" mould
650gn bullets, 1.44" long
All bullets within .5gn of each other, 647.2 – 647. 7gn
Ney Certified 20:1 lead/tin (I'm switching to better John Walters lead)
Bullets indexed in cases, cases indexed in chamber
Brass: New Starline 50/2.50, annealed, full-lengh sized, weighed, measured, chamfered, deburred
All Starline 50/2.50 brass comes .004” to .010” too short from factory
Primers Federal 215 Large Magnum Rifle
Powder 127 gn Swiss 1.5F, trickled slowly through 2’ drop tube
Powder compressed .135”
Patch BACO 9# dry paper patched
No patch nor other lube
Over powder wad, two John Walters .030 veggie wads, .512” diameter
No other wads nor grease cookies.
Clean bore after each shot, two patches of 20% NAPA + 80% distilled water; one dry patch.
Dry chamber with custom chamber mop
Bullets thumb seated ~.320”

Obviously I'm delighted with the bullets.

Lemme know if I can help.
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Postby straightneck » Sat Jul 26, 2008 4:42 pm

william dixon
Thank you, You can help. I sent you a PM
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Re: 50-90 paper patch bullet HELP

Postby Dphariss » Tue Jul 29, 2008 10:47 pm

[quote="straightneck"]Looking for some bullets to try, before I invest in moulds or swage dies. The only .50 paper patch bullets I have found are .500 and .505 dia. I have tried these in 450,500,550,& 600gr. with 90 -115 gr. goex, schultzen, and swiss and got fair results. 2-3 in. groups at 100 yrd. My chamber has a short lead and no throat. I have not sluged the barrel but a .500 bullet will fall through. Does anyone know of a source for .493-.495 dia. bullets. OR :) is there anyone shooting .50 PP in this size that would be willing to let a person try a few and work out what they are worth in some way. Those .500 patch to .5065 and the .505 patch to .5115 that takes a lot of powder space and puts most ot the patch in those short starline cases :( . OAL 3.040 And I was still able to put(stomp)115 gr. swiss a wax paper disc .187 lube wad and a .012 top wad under 600 gr. and that the ones that were in the center. So I beleive when I find the diameter I need this C. sHARPS BOSS LADY and ME will really dance. YES the rumors about me and lude and lucivious behavior with a rifle are true. :twisted: :wink:

THANK YOU. Any help is welcome.[/quote]

You need a tapered bullet for best results.
For a 50 you need bullet about .500-.502 at the BASE and tapered to about .010-.012 smaller at the point where the front of the patch will be.
This is for about .002" paper.
This will allow the bullet base to fit the case and still load in the gun with the bullet about .060-.1" in the case.
Also the cartridge cases should be with in .010" of the [b]actual chamber length[/b].
Patch them dry not wet and remove as much of the twisted tail as you can. Use 1:30- 1:20 alloy for best accuracy (in most guns).
One more thing.
There is no nor was there ever a "PP chamber" in a Shiloh Sharps or any originals.

Dan
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Postby Dphariss » Tue Jul 29, 2008 11:11 pm

[quote="Scota4570"]I tried simmilar diameter bullets in my 50-90. They were not tapered and weighed 660 grains. They were cast of pure lead. I patched them with wet typing paper. They were loaded over a compressed load of 2F. The barrel is a lapped/choked Green Mountain; it shoots . The chamber fits the brass and the 0.512" leede is about 1/8" long. The lands taper at 2-degrees.

Results..........keyholes. I was hoping they would bump up, apparently they did not.

I shot some .450" groove diameter 380 grain swaged of pure lead wire last weekend. They patched up to about .460". I loaded them 15 years ago over 47 gr 4895 in 45-70. Last weekend they shot a litle over 1 moa.

I would like to hear how folks make the skinny bullets shoot well over BP.[/quote]

The nose probably slumped or the chamber is too large. Too large a chamber can really mess up the patch and might not cause trouble with smokeless do to its different burn characteristics. I would try harder bullets with BP. Bore sized bullets will shoot OK once they are sorted out. But the fit in the case is a PITA.
In my experience seating depths over about .125" with PP bullets hurt accuracy.
Some typing paper gets sticky if put on wet.

Dan
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Postby Orville » Wed Jul 30, 2008 8:07 am

Dan
I'm going to disagree with you about chambers, 2 years ago I was trying to find out what the twist was in the original 50 2 1/2. I found two originals at the Denver gun show, one bridgeport and the other a hartford. Both guns had a 1-34 twist and nether would chamber a case which had been fired in a Shiloh. The case would stop about a 1/2 from going in.
I also checked some 45 2 7/8 chambers of the two I checked nether would chamber a case fired in a Shiloh.
I also purchased an original loaded round, the patched bullet is .501 at the base, it is a tapered bullet and the wt. is 473 gr. The outside of the case measured .526.
To make a long story short Shiloh built a rifle for me with a 1-36 twist and chambered it with my reamer which is .526 at the chamber end. I had as swage made to copy the original bullet and loaded it like the original.
This gun shoots great, with loads I had loaded before I picked up the gun
useing barrel sights at 50 yds 4 shots out of 5 went into the same hole no wiping blowing just load and shoot. I have shot it out to 885 yds and hit the target on the second shot, that's about where I run out of sight on the ladder.
This gun performs like some of the original accounts left by old hunters who used the 50 2 1/2.
Your are right about not seating the bullet too deep when using a large chamber, with the smaller chambers it isn't that important to watch your seating depth, with the 50 the seating depth will change by how thick my lube wad it, I seat the bullet any where from .372- .425 it dosn't seem to matter.
With the large chamber you seat the bullet out as far as possible to keep it from upsetting in the chamber, the ideal condition is for the bullet to finish upsetting in the barrel.
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Postby Kurt » Wed Jul 30, 2008 11:53 am

At present I don't have a tapered bullet mould for the .50 but I do have a swage die on order for one.
People seem to have a problem getting them to shoot, I think it is mostly because that bullet has a tendency to slump with a soft alloy.
Cast that bullet hard 1/18 or a little harder at 1/16 and that bullet will work very good.
I don't know why or what the reason was for them at that time period to have made that tapered bullet but I my self think it was developed so it would stay in the case with out falling out or putting a excessive taper crimp on the case mouth so the round could be carried in a cartridge belt with out loosing the bullet.
Or so they could make repeated shots when the throat gets build up with fouling, I don't know the reason, but to me it's logical from my use of the .45 caliber tapered bullets I use.
My bullet is .449 at it's base and .439 at the start of the ogive radius.
Shoot this tapered bullet hard and it will shoot.

Kurt
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Postby Dphariss » Wed Jul 30, 2008 12:23 pm

[quote="Kurt"]At present I don't have a tapered bullet mould for the .50 but I do have a swage die on order for one.
People seem to have a problem getting them to shoot, I think it is mostly because that bullet has a tendency to slump with a soft alloy.
Cast that bullet hard 1/18 or a little harder at 1/16 and that bullet will work very good.
I don't know why or what the reason was for them at that time period to have made that tapered bullet but I my self think it was developed so it would stay in the case with out falling out or putting a excessive taper crimp on the case mouth so the round could be carried in a cartridge belt with out loosing the bullet.
Or so they could make repeated shots when the throat gets build up with fouling, I don't know the reason, but to me it's logical from my use of the .45 caliber tapered bullets I use.
My bullet is .449 at it's base and .439 at the start of the ogive radius.
Shoot this tapered bullet hard and it will shoot.

Kurt[/quote]
Fairly blunt bullets will shoot OK "streamlined" bullets like the "Special LR" bullet were very hard 1-16/1-14.
PP bullets generally will not consistently shoot as well or out shoot a good GG design.

Dan
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Postby Kurt » Wed Jul 30, 2008 2:13 pm

I don't know if I could say that one is more accurate than the other.
I have good and bad days with either one with a previous good load.

Kurt
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Postby Dphariss » Wed Jul 30, 2008 2:44 pm

[quote="Kurt"]I don't know if I could say that one is more accurate than the other.
I have good and bad days with either one with a previous good load.

Kurt[/quote]

The Schuetzen shooters Harry Pope etc settled on GG.

Dan
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Postby Kurt » Wed Jul 30, 2008 3:59 pm

Yes he did use a mini grooved .32 caliber with a breach seating tool.
I have a tool and a mould for the bullet he used. Actually the bullet mikes out at .333.
Dan I think a person can just about find a good shooting bullet of most any design, some take just a little more work.

Kurt
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