40-65 smokless loads

This is the general discussion area for the forums at BPCR.net. Anyone who appreciates and enjoys the classic single shot rifles of the late 1800 period is welcome to take part here. Civility in all postings, and respect for your fellow shooters are the primary expectations of all members. Trolls will be removed from the membership without warning or recourse. The Forum owner has the final, and only, say in who is determined to be a troll. Please try to put your posts in the correct forum. (Example: loading tips and questions in the "Cartridge Loading..." forum.) Postings may be moved by the moderator to correct forums if he determines they can be better placed.
BUTTON_POST_REPLY
DML
PostsCOLON 254
JoinedCOLON Mon Nov 27, 2006 4:47 pm
LocationCOLON Aridzona

Post by DML » Sun Dec 02, 2007 9:34 pm

Red Logan wroteCOLONWhat say you all about global warming, that would be a nice change...
Hey Red:

If you hang around here much (or on any other forum for that matter) you will find that there is some....ahhhh...antagonism among the troops. :wink: Don't let it bother you. There is a lot of good info available here.

Dennis

PS: Global warming is a lot of dodo. AlGore invented it. :D

User avatar
Ranch 13
PostsCOLON 1584
JoinedCOLON Mon Nov 21, 2005 9:41 am
LocationCOLON Eastern Wy
CONTACTCOLON

Post by Ranch 13 » Sun Dec 02, 2007 11:23 pm

:D Got this vision in my head the Mrs. Phariss's boy and supposed chamber ringing, morphing into Al Gore and global warming. Lots of things in common there, :? Ask either one of them to give you some hard facts, and get a screamin meemy snit fit, and alot of slobber and bluster , but no answer. :roll:

Dphariss
PostsCOLON 205
JoinedCOLON Sun Apr 02, 2006 7:50 pm
LocationCOLON Montana

Post by Dphariss » Mon Dec 03, 2007 4:47 am

[quote="Ranch 13"]Phariss, you keep spouting examples of this and that , but offer no hard evidence, and no details.

Twere I you I'ld take my own advise and give it a rest. Altho your flare for melodramatics could lead you to a possible twobit acting carreer in some off broadway joint or such. It don't do much to impress a lot of folks.

Folks been using smokeles for over a century now, and if the stuff was as bad as you try to make it out, it would of been obsolete decades ago.[/quote]

50 gr of 3031 in a 45 or 50 3 1/4" will damage the gun sooner or later, long hang fires will result in the 45. I quit at 3 shots and the gun and I suffered no damage. With a 50 probably in 1-5 shots based on the one the guy blew up in 1-3. This is with no filler or wad. If you use a filler is takes a LOT. If you used something like dacron the powder may shift anyway.

6.5 gr of red dot in a 45 colt and a 200 gr bullet will blow cylinders probably in the first 20-50 rounds. 13 grains will not stick cases. 7 gr is the recommended load for the 250-255 gr. This direct from the shooter who you apparently consider to be an expert on handloading and he certainly is.

Loading a 38 special full wad cutter charge of bullseye, 2.5-3 gr IIRC, in a 357 mag case with a 158 gr SWC will blow the cylinder. Full case of bullseye will only bulge. Did not witness any of this but the source is not easily impeached, S&W.
44-40 loads making much over 16000 psi will likely stretch brass framed lever actions. I think the guy was shooting 1892 loads, powder unknown, even though I warned him not to.

Overloading a 44-40 1873 win reproduction (I think it was one of the AA pistol powders charge unknown at this date, I am sure intended charge was doubled) will shear the bottom off the bolt at the link pin causing it to impact the rear of the receiver at some speed. When this occurs the back part of the two piece firing pin will then exit the receiver after shearing the .050"+- retaining pin. It will exit with enough force to pierce the shooters shooting glasses and penetrate to the rear of the eye socket. I suspect that there was bullet lube or some other lubricant in the chamber from a previous load or the one that broke the bolt that further increased bolt thrust. Chamber was not bugled. Same shooter also blew up a SA colt clone blowing the top strap AND breaking the water table in front of the recoil shield. From the way things were broken I think this was an underload. Before you lecture me on the design of the 73 Winchester firing pin be aware the Italians make it different. If you want a full report I think I wrote it up for SPG years back.

24 gr of 2400 will eventually burst a TD barrel, though it might take years of shooting, or not. Either from improper ignition of the powder or metal fatigue. If the shooters hand is in the area of the "break" his hand will be damaged. If its improper ignition my no fast powders rule in rifles would perhaps prevent it. Though not super fast 2400 is a pistol powder. If its metal fatigue the no smokeless in old guns would prevent it. This guy was warned but not by me. I am not in his peer group I suppose, the the man who warned him is.
BTW you can blow an original TD by heavily compressing Pyrodex too.
This occured while testing was being done on the feasibility of starting the sport of BPCR Silhouette. I have this second hand but the source is very reliable. No I will not give you either shooters name.
38-40 Winchester 1873 may exhibit wildly varying velocity using 7 gr of Unique. But I managed to not blow the gun up.Swithced to LMP primers and the variations disappeared.
Large velocity variations, based on trajectory and report, are a precursor to blowing up a firearms from all reports (see the 6.5 gr Red Dot load above, it did the same thing or so the shooter told me before the "event" occured). You will not need a chronograph to know things are not right.

I have already documented the Unique load and the ringed chambers as much as needed. if you doubt any of the statements about rings. Get some Unique, almost everyone has some, and shoot 500 rounds or so of Lymans upper end loads. 1000 if you feel the need. I figure you have a 50 to 80% chance of ringing the chamber.
Or experiment with fillers and wads and 5744. Prove me wrong. I you want I will call and get some loading data that has proven to ring barrels. This will allow you to determine if they are real or not.

Dan

Doubled
PostsCOLON 21
JoinedCOLON Tue Nov 20, 2007 9:32 pm

Post by Doubled » Mon Dec 03, 2007 8:09 am

oneokie wroteCOLONThere is one common item mentioned in every post in this thread in regards to ringed chambers.

That is the use of FILLERS.
And there in lies the problem, people say filler and then talk about wads.

As long as people don't understand the difference and how to use them chambers are going to get ringed.
DD

Red Logan
PostsCOLON 50
JoinedCOLON Sat Nov 10, 2007 6:45 pm
LocationCOLON Ruin Va

Post by Red Logan » Mon Dec 03, 2007 9:05 am

And there in lies the problem, people say filler and then talk about wads.

As long as people don't understand the difference and how to use them chambers are going to get ringed.


Now for more info, can thin card wads serve to keep powder next to the primer, without causing harm, as I have used card wads in a 45-70 td for years and have had no problem, but if it is unsafe I should probably quite doing it, ( useing an old load from 41 or 42 lyman book of uniQ...an answer please

crossfireoops
PostsCOLON 767
JoinedCOLON Wed Nov 23, 2005 6:48 am

Wads / Fillers........?

Post by crossfireoops » Mon Dec 03, 2007 9:21 am

There it is, in a nutshell.........5 pages of impassioned and VERY well informed opinion, and lots of hard fact, and a question like this :shock: appears.

"can thin card wads serve to keep powder next to the primer, without causing harm,...............

I have used card wads in a 45-70 td for years and have had no problem, but if it is unsafe I should probably quite doing it, ( useing an old load from 41 or 42 lyman book of uniQ...an answer please"



ANSWERs :

YES , card wads over small charges of fast pistol powder( Unique?) are Dangerous.

YES, you should probably quit doing it .

GTC 8)

Red Logan
PostsCOLON 50
JoinedCOLON Sat Nov 10, 2007 6:45 pm
LocationCOLON Ruin Va

Post by Red Logan » Mon Dec 03, 2007 9:40 am

thankx crossfire, I will discontinue useing card wads... and for that fact any fillers.. and will pass on this info to the club where 99 % of the shooters use a filler of some type or card wad..

crossfireoops
PostsCOLON 767
JoinedCOLON Wed Nov 23, 2005 6:48 am

Mr Logan

Post by crossfireoops » Mon Dec 03, 2007 9:54 am

I'm really glad to hear that, Red.

Shoot well, shoot often, and shoot SAFE.

GTC 8)

oneokie
PostsCOLON 59
JoinedCOLON Sat Jul 07, 2007 10:43 pm
LocationCOLON Somewhere in Oklahoma

Post by oneokie » Mon Dec 03, 2007 10:04 am

crossfireoops wrote;
......5 pages of impassioned ............ opinion,
Yep, that is all it is opinion, with out citations of sources to back it up.

Some supposedely know this because they know some one who experienced the chamber ringing or firearm failure. Reads like ego stroking to me.

Maybe it is a deliberate attempt to keep the issue confusing.

Do a search for a Frenchman by the name of Vielle, and his work.

Also, search for work done by a man named Charlie Dell.
Those who fail to study history are doomed to repeat it.

crossfireoops
PostsCOLON 767
JoinedCOLON Wed Nov 23, 2005 6:48 am

Aw Jeez Pic

Post by crossfireoops » Mon Dec 03, 2007 10:18 am

At this point it should be reasonably clear why I put that "Oh Jeez, not this **** again " pic up so pronto. :D :roll: :lol:

Just knew where this was gonna' go, so to speak. :wink:

GTC 8)

oneokie
PostsCOLON 59
JoinedCOLON Sat Jul 07, 2007 10:43 pm
LocationCOLON Somewhere in Oklahoma

Post by oneokie » Mon Dec 03, 2007 10:33 am

Expected response. :wink:

Why is it that when asked to clarify a statement, the supposedly knowledgeable people evade the question by going off on another tangent? :?
Those who fail to study history are doomed to repeat it.

User avatar
Ranch 13
PostsCOLON 1584
JoinedCOLON Mon Nov 21, 2005 9:41 am
LocationCOLON Eastern Wy
CONTACTCOLON

Post by Ranch 13 » Mon Dec 03, 2007 11:53 am

Phariss thank you for the clarifications and the details. Pretty much falls inline with alot of what folks have known for years. Unigue while a quite usefull powder in many applications isn't suitable , except for in a pinch. Powders faster than that can really be a problem and need to be handled with great care. I think from what little I've shot IMR's Trail Boss theres going to be some real desasters show up with that stuff in rifle cartridges in the not distant future.
The formulas that folks like Nonte, Keith, Waters and others have put years and years ago of using 2400 and 4198 to use in the old cartridges have some merrit,but need to be prudently used and then only in guns of good to excellent condition.
Ignoring Accurates advise to not use fillers with 5744 can be a real problem, might get away with it for a bit, but sooner or later its going to bite you. Ignoring any factory made recipe's and advice is fairly likely to lead to troubles.
Shooting the old timers built not proofed with smokeless, and or nickle steel barrels, is just flat asking for trouble when using smokeless.Probably get away with it for awhile but sooner or later that old steel isn't going to stand the different pressure curve of smokeless and let go.
The subs while convienient to purchase in many locations where bp is unavailable do generate quite a bit more pressure than straight black,and should not be trusted compeletely.
Lastly and certainly not least fillers are a baaad bad thing, they can will and do cause all manner of pressure spikes, and while a great many guns can handle it, some can't, and the risk to a classic old rifle just isn't worth the risk.

Doubled
PostsCOLON 21
JoinedCOLON Tue Nov 20, 2007 9:32 pm

Post by Doubled » Mon Dec 03, 2007 12:35 pm

Red Logan wroteCOLONthankx crossfire, I will discontinue useing card wads... and for that fact any fillers.. and will pass on this info to the club where 99 % of the shooters use a filler of some type or card wad..
And Red you would be wrong to say that. A card wad is not a filler, it is wad. Fillers are something else entirely. That is my point and what Crossfire is trying to tell you. And as long as people fail to understand that the argument of ringing will continue.
Ranch 13 wroteCOLON Lastly and certainly not least fillers are a baaad bad thing, they can will and do cause all manner of pressure spikes, and while a great many guns can handle it, some can't, and the risk to a classic old rifle just isn't worth the risk.
But this is just as wrong. Placing a card wad on top of the powder followed by a grease cookie and another wad or two and seating bulet on top of that is a filler. I doubt you would call that bad.

Suggest a read of Greame Wrights Shooting the British Double Rifle and his report on the pressure tests conducted at the Birmingham Proof House using fillers, with Blackpowder and NfB loads in the late 1990's.
Last edited by 1 on Doubled, edited 0 times in total.
DD

User avatar
Ranch 13
PostsCOLON 1584
JoinedCOLON Mon Nov 21, 2005 9:41 am
LocationCOLON Eastern Wy
CONTACTCOLON

Post by Ranch 13 » Mon Dec 03, 2007 12:38 pm

Here's a couple of more places I think folks can get into trouble when loading smokeless.

Crimp, for whatever reason folks have come to think that using massive amounts of crimp is the only way to go. Well it might be if your sizing dies don't resize the cases enough, or you are trying to get by with a bullet that's to small for your particular gun. But crimp also raises pressure dramatically and should be used in moderation. Near as I can tell folks that use the lee factory crimp die are just trying to compensate for not being able to read instructions with a die set, and or trying to get past crumpled case while crimping in a seating die with to much crimp.
Most of the time just enough crimp to take the flare out of the case mouth is plenty sufficient, even when it comes to loading for the drattted tube fed leverguns.

Magnum primers are another place where pressurse spike badly, and that coupled with the oft recommended "hard crimp" is just asking for problems.

User avatar
Gomez
PostsCOLON 28
JoinedCOLON Fri Oct 19, 2007 7:18 am

Post by Gomez » Mon Dec 03, 2007 9:05 pm

Oh, I so do hate to get into this thread...makes me feel kinda dirty if you know what I mean. But, amongst other things properly black, I load for my 470NE double. Like many contemporary doubles, it was regulated with Federal ammo. Now, I bought a box of that stuff when I was new to the gun to prove its accuracy. The two barrels shoot to one ragged hole at 50 yards.

But, the Federals cost $7 per bang so hand loading is mandatory. Problem is, I had to duplicate the Federal load and if any of you have ever done either, I reckon it's easier to regulate barrels to a load than finding a load which matches the regulation parameters of the barrels. I, therefore, did the only proper thing and pulled one apart to examine the charge under the microscope. It was 84 gr of a medium length tube powder with no wad. The load rattled around like a spoon of salt in a coffee can. Seriously, that case is less than half full.

So. there I was out at the Safari Club convention in Reno where I hounded the Federal guys to give up the recipe. "Oh, my dear fellow, no...secret...tripple secret and arcane knowedge...even we do not speak of it...we would have to kill you...please go away or buy something." Finally - I'm a most tenacious fellow - they said that it was a proprietary canister powder not available to the marketplace. "Now, go away or buy something."

Later after the 12 bars opened - SCI is a very civilized place - I found noted African writer, Craig Boddington, and told him the story. After spitting his scotch half way across the room, he said, "B*** S***! It's 84 gains of RL15!" The difference, and the thing we reckoned allowed all that air space without an explosion, was a truly proprietary primer hotter than the 215, a 216 if you will.

How to overcome the problem? A trip over to the Kynoch booth yielded up some 1" black foam wads. It's very open celled and squishy and, according to Kynoch, completely obliterated in the ignition sequence.

Loaded 'em up, shot the range at 50 yards and they cut one ragged hole. Sweet success.

The point is, Federal got it done with a huge airspace and I got it done with a foam wad. It seems there are no absolutes.

Regards, and Damn All Chickens,
RD
http://OldGringo.us

BUTTON_POST_REPLY