40-65 smokless loads

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DRCook
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Post by DRCook » Wed Nov 28, 2007 8:25 pm

What did they tell you their chamber was ?

If you call CH4D you will find that Dave Davisson and his boy Matt are two of the nicest folks you could want to talk to, They work the evenings though. CH4D is on eastern standard time. They are about an hour south of me. I go visit quite often. The majority of my dies come from them. They are not the cheapest, not the most expensive. They are a small shop keeping dinner on a few families table.

regards.
dave

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Gomez
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Post by Gomez » Wed Nov 28, 2007 8:32 pm

Actually, it appears that there were 3 distinctly different 40-65s, the 40-65 Winchester/Marlin, the 40-65 Ballard "Everlasting" and the 40-65 ne. 40-70 Sharps Straight. The confusion on the Sharps seems to issue from which bullet is used, i.e. a longer bullet restricts the powder charge to 65 gr.

"Cartridges of the World" says that the case length on the Sharps was 2.5" Is this latter cartridge the one chambered in your Miroku highwall?

Regards and Damn All Chickens,

RD
http://OldGringo.us

Red Logan
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Post by Red Logan » Wed Nov 28, 2007 9:01 pm

DRCook
they just said that it wasent a 40-65 win, but a 40-65 browning. Thats what sone one else has said, if I can find my casting metal I will do a chamber cast in the am, but havent seen the cero-safe in 20 years, and dont want to go thru the hassel of getting more...

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Post by TexasMac » Wed Nov 28, 2007 9:26 pm

Red,

The unique features of the Browning .40-65 chamber, which differentiates it from the classical .40-65 Winchester design, is the cylindrical area just ahead of the case rim and a well defined neck. In contrast to Winchester’s original .40-65 cartridge design, there’s no taper or change in chamber diameter in the first 0.135” of the case region in front of the rim. Also, the final 0.500” section is a cylinder with a constant diameter, a region that can clearly be defined as a neck. Some reamer suppliers are listing the chamber dimensions as the .40-65 Browning.

I understand that Lyman's .40-65 die set was designed to match the Browning chamber, although others may also. I have the Lyman and can verify that it does.

Wayne
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crossfireoops
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OOPS

Post by crossfireoops » Wed Nov 28, 2007 9:38 pm

Red, .......no offence taken, this can be a fairly rowdy crew, and I've seen em' worse ( folks have pretty much quit posting KISS MY AZZ).Lord, we must be settlin' down, or getting old.....

Self deprecation is an admirable trait, when one starts to advise, and humility maybe best characterises the best advisors. This was certainly not the case with that old curmudgeon Jack O'Connor, who totally corrupted me as a young sprout......smokeless powder and VELOCITY.
Not to say that anything that got in the way of my "Mighty .270" didn't
fall down pronto, dead like.

Fortunately, and fortuitously, an old Ballard Pacific fell into my hands, and was mollested with a new barrel..........than a drop dead gorgeous 71-84 .43Mauser . I took note that meat animals were ventilated crossways or endways, and dropped just as dead as when zapped with screamers at warp speed. Also noted that the things have got a lot of soul.

I won't digress into the original trapdoor that me and older bros invested the princely sum of $19.95 ( hand selected / picked).....we couldn't really call those monkeyshines "Shooting".......more like God's grace, that we didn't wind up blind, or in orbit.

I've got Dangerous Game loads for .45-90 BPCR Brownings that I simply won't post, to NOBODY, ....no-when. Got 'em from the man who MADE the barrels, .....and in areas where one can't go with BP, ......one can suitably ventilate bellicose beasts.........

When one stops to consider that several of our notorious bretren have knocked down 2 Cape, or Asian Buffalo with one shot, and that end to end penetration on the Big Deer are common, at BP / Soft alloy pressures, and velocities, well, one stops and considers that.

The fact that BP will deliver the BEST accuracy, and the smallest SDs, and ESs.......well one will also consider that.

Were I gonna screw around with smokeless, I'd be taking a LONG look at the 20MM "Pulldown" powders, with a discrete "Kicker"......3031, 4198, 4227, ......this being based on the inherant stregnth of your Browning BPCR. Some guys run the stuff in originals........with great "Groups", and bragging rights.......gives me the willies, ...that.

There is a BPCR running in Africa, as we speak,........a BPCR hogged out to .460 Weatherby.........and the fellow who runs it has knocked down 100s of elephants, therewith. His original .460 W. bolt gun gathers dust, for years now.

Understand that there's a natural ( and VERY well founded) reticance for folks here to just start tossing white powder data about.....and that's just the way it is.

Your BPCR will NEVER shoot as well, or as straight with smokeless, as what it will with BP.

Let me wish you and all of yours, the most joyous and blessed CHRISTmas season, and look foward to hearing how you make out with your dies.

Lotta' .40-65 chambers floating around out there, it would seem :D .
Good reason to be a mite cautious, I'd say.

GTC 8)

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Ranch 13
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Post by Ranch 13 » Wed Nov 28, 2007 11:03 pm

Dphariss wroteCOLON
Red Logan wroteCOLONOne must be careful with 5744 people have been ringing chamber with it. Dan
Don't suppose you'ld feel up to providing a few details on that?

Ray Newman
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Post by Ray Newman » Wed Nov 28, 2007 11:51 pm

BobW: here's a new Shiloh thread that could use that pciture-- another thread on calibre selection!

http://www.shilohrifle.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=10063
The most important aspect of this signature line is that you don't realize it doesn't say anything significant until you are just about done reading it & then it is too late to stop reading it....
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Red Logan
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Post by Red Logan » Thu Nov 29, 2007 8:37 am

TexasMac
It would appear that the dies I have (redding) are as you say, a quick miking of the sized case confirms that as well as a visual of the chamber, I will mike a fired case as soon as I see if the cattle are not on the range. more to come..

Red Logan
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Post by Red Logan » Thu Nov 29, 2007 11:19 am

It would appear that the chamber depth is 2.115+-.001
With that said 2.100 cases will not cause a problem, but the overlength cases would ..
Will make up 5 cases 2.110+-001 to see fi any change occures

Jim Milner
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Post by Jim Milner » Fri Nov 30, 2007 1:32 am

Bob W
Right click on the picture
left click on the appropriate response that comes up.
Jim
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You are only as good as your last performance


C.Sharps Hiwall 40-65

Dphariss
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Post by Dphariss » Fri Nov 30, 2007 8:52 am

[quote="Ranch 13"][quote="Dphariss"][quote="Red Logan"]One must be careful with 5744 people have been ringing chamber with it. Dan[/quote]

Don't suppose you'ld feel up to providing a few details on that?[/quote]

Came up in phone conversation about something else with Garbe the other day. So I don't have details. I DON"T NEED THEM. I know that fast powders are not well suited to rifles.
I suspect that from what I remember the charges were too light and people were using fillers IIRC.
This is why I tell people not to duplicate BP ballistics with smokeless.
I did an Gunsmiths Bench for SPG about using AA 3100 and 8700 in my 45-100. These powders actually shoot pretty well at 100 with these powders and velocity is high end BP if loaded to within .200 of the bullet base. But since the powder is well below its designed operating pressure there is a lot of unburned powder in the bore.
I would no more load this cartridge with fast smokeless than I would load it with C-4.

This is an ongoing problem. Occurs in rifles and pistols with large capacity cases. To use most smokeless powders efficiently the 45-70, for example, could be shortened 5/8 to 3/4" and still get the original BP velocity.
This is why the Miller shorts and others were developed for Schuetzen. THE BIG CASES even 32-40 and 38-55 DON"T WORK WELL WITH SMOKELESS. Shooters must be VERY CAREFUL and some are not careful enough.
Oh yeah and another 12L14 barrel in 32-40 or 38-55 blew recently....
Running late
Dan

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Ranch 13
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Post by Ranch 13 » Fri Nov 30, 2007 11:02 am

Hmm, I shoot from time to time 25 grs of 5744 with a 500 gr bullet in the 45-70 (accurates recipe) and find that across the chrony its only 10 fps different from 68 grs of cartridge with the same bullet. Both loads shoot inside the same group. Have similar experience in the 40-65.
I do think lots of folks get into thin ice when they start putting fillers in with smokeless loads. Pressure spikes, bullets acting as a bore blockage etc.

Dphariss
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Post by Dphariss » Sat Dec 01, 2007 12:48 pm

[quote="Ranch 13"]Hmm, I shoot from time to time 25 grs of 5744 with a 500 gr bullet in the 45-70 (accurates recipe) and find that across the chrony its only 10 fps different from 68 grs of cartridge with the same bullet. Both loads shoot inside the same group. Have similar experience in the 40-65.
I do think lots of folks get into thin ice when they start putting fillers in with smokeless loads. Pressure spikes, bullets acting as a bore blockage etc.[/quote]

Unique will ring long chambers from end to end. By the time it is discovered when the ring at the base of the bullet gets big enough to mark the cases there will be many, many rings, 100 or more in 45-70s. Not possible for a filler to do this, though pufflon might help it since there is no air space I don't have any idea what the pressures would do. So I won't be trying it.
In pressure wave phenomenon when the wave coincide a ring is formed.
A tiny little ring not much bigger than a big reamer mark. But its not a reamer mark.
As I have pointed out serious events may only occur at long intervals. People who have shot a given load of smokeless for decades will suddenly blow up guns and some times parts of themselves.

This occurs with everything from revolvers to field pieces.
Thus, based on reports and experiences of my own I don't shoot light loads for smokeless. I don't shoot any fast smokeless except in pistol cartridges.
Loads like 7 gr of Unique in a 38-40 would seem safe enough. But I have found that is SOME 38-40s this load gives very inconsistent ballistics with large pistol primers. You need to no chrono to tell. Don't know why. But I changed to LMP and it cured it.
The problem is that sometimes you don't get a second chance. Many blowups happen in revolvers or in testing rifles off the bench. This has saved many a non-shooting hand, others have not been so lucky.
So I shoot black in vintage guns. I shoot smokeless in some calibers but not at BP ballistics. I don't generally shoot smokeless in cases ment for more the 70 gr of BP anymore, its too worry some. Unless my editor twists my arm as in the tests with 3100 and 8700 I did with my 45 2.6". Then I started with a compressed charge and then backed it down to something tolerable. I was not concerned with a powder this slow over pressuring anything.
But lots of people do. After doing some testing years ago I decided that people that shot smokeless should stay with 70 gr or smaller cases. its safe but its still not safe.

Powder makes loading data. There is a LOT of lunacy here. Foremost in my mind are the Unique loads shown for 45-70 and the load that recommend as much a 60 grains of smokeless (25000 psi+-) in orginal Trapdoors. I have major "trust issues" with loading manuals. They generate data in a ballistics lab with a limited number of shots under controlled conditions. As a result we have unique loads for 45-70 that at least 2 manufacturers have found to ring chambers.
We have powders that simply changing the bullet weight down 50 grs (250 to 200) will blow the cylinders in 45 colt revolvers. The maker recommends 1/2 gr more for this powder with 200 gr. Red Dot in this case. So is this recommended load 100% safe? I doubt.
People have been blowing up guns with reduced charges for as long as I can remember, we just didn't know it yet. We thought they had over charged the case. Not knowing that a full case of Bullseye (for example) will not usually blow a 357 mag but a light loads will. Thus its impossible to double charge or triple charge and blow the gun in this case.
With heavy charges of 3031 it is possible to duplicate Nitro express ballisitcs in cartridge cases similar to the 50-140, and the various long case 45 calibers. But also I know its possible blow a 50-140 to fragments with 50 odd grains of 3031.
I don't just dream this stuff up.
If you read Phil Sharpes book on handloading you will see that it was proven years ago that light loads of dense powders (like IMR) were poison. DuPont even said so. Sharpe does mention several Unique loads for rifle cases.....
Now we are finding the fast powders have "issues" as well.
We will never know how many reproductions and originals have been blown by shooting "safe" cast bullet or "Cowboy" loads of smokeless powder. We will never know how many repro Sharps, etc and their shooters have been saved by the makers telling shooters not to shoot smokeless in the large cases.
I am confident in the statement that there are rifles out there with ringed chambers the owners don't even know about.... yet. I am sure mine are not among them.
5744 has done well in 45-70 but I don't use it much, I like 4198 better. I just don't have a reason to shoot 45-70 at BP velocities with smokeless.

But.... My wife has a Buffalo tag so I am looking into the 457193 and lighter than normal for me loads for recoil reduction.
Dan

DML
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Post by DML » Sat Dec 01, 2007 3:33 pm

I may have missed it, but I don't think SR 4759 has been mentioned. 4759 has been used in BP cartidges forever.

I recently tried it in my Browning .40-65. 20gr. with a 410gr. bullet. It is very mild and even with my poor eyesight, I got 1 1/2" groups at 100 yards.

Any problems with this powder?

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Post by Ranch 13 » Sat Dec 01, 2007 8:06 pm

I'm pretty much of the notion that if a particular gun was not proofed for smokeless loads then it had best be shot with bp only. If the gun in question was proofed for smokeless then if smokeless is what you want , then go for it.
Lifes to short to get stuck in one discipline of shooting. A feller can miss out on a whole lot of fun by getting stuck in a rut as well.

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