Best 3 Bullet styles

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CIMMARONKID
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Best 3 Bullet styles

Post by CIMMARONKID » Tue Sep 04, 2007 9:58 pm

OK, be nice to me as I am just getting started in this sport and need some knowledgeable opinions expressed. I have two rifles, a Pedersoli 74 with 34" barrel and a Browning 1885 BPCR, both of which are in 45-70. Question is if you had to live with only 3 bullet styles to shoot everything from Silhouette to Creedmoor, what would you pick and who would you have cut the blocks? I know there are a lot of other variables, but elimate them and just tell me your 3 favorite molds.
"They couldn't hit an elephant at this distance" last words of Union General Sedgwick before a Confederate sniper killed him with a head shot.

Jim Milner
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Post by Jim Milner » Tue Sep 04, 2007 10:20 pm

CimmaronKid,
At the risk of ruining my reputation, welcome aboard. Both rifles are great choices, and will serve you well with proper care.
I am presuming the calibre to be 45/70.
My opinion is worth exactly what you pay for it. With that in mind, I would go with the Lyman Postell design or a good bore riding design in the weight area of 530 -550 grains for target work. For hunting, the original government style is hard to beat. I would have Paul Jones or Steve Brooks cut the mould. Both are very knowledgable and do work of the higest order. Artisans in Iron. Brooks would be my choice.
Calibre other than 45, I would pick something similiar in design.
There are some on this forum who will give you their experience with different designs, and you would do well to heed their advice. If you can borrow bullets of different designs and try them you may find the golden one. each rifle is a personality of itself and will show yopu what it likes.
Jim
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JSU
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Post by JSU » Wed Sep 05, 2007 6:08 am

Consider this bullet, first and last.

< http://www.shilohrifle.com/forums/viewt ... c&start=15 >

Scroll down until you get to Dan Theodore's drawing of a bullet for long range .45 cal rifles.

Print it out and send this drawing, plus a slug from your barrel, and a check, to Paul Jones.

Spend your money right the first time and you won't have to spend it again.

--Steve
Life without passion is neither....

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montana_charlie
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Post by montana_charlie » Wed Sep 05, 2007 9:44 am

JSU wroteCOLONConsider this bullet, first and last.
The drawing JSU linked to is not really a newby's bullet. Designed for shooting at extreme long range (a mile) it is quite long, and requires a pile of velocity. A .45/70 probably can't hold enough black powder to get the required speed without a smokeless 'booster'.

DT's 'MiniGroove' and 'Money Bullet' designs, while still being somewhat 'specialized', are probably better for general long range use.
http://shilohrifle.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=7703
and
http://shilohrifle.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=7875

Paul Jones can cut both of those, and he (also) advertises the PGT bullet...developed specifically for Pedersoli chambers. It falls within the parameters of a Postell-like bullet, described by Jim Milner.
CM
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Kelley O. Roos
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Post by Kelley O. Roos » Wed Sep 05, 2007 1:54 pm

montana_charlie,

Why is that bullet, JSU linked, "is not really a newby's bullet" :?:

Kelley O.

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montana_charlie
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Post by montana_charlie » Wed Sep 05, 2007 4:23 pm

Kelley O. Roos wroteCOLONWhy is that bullet, JSU linked, "is not really a newby's bullet"?
I'm sure you read Dan's description, so I suppose you are asking just to have fun.
CM
Retired...twice. Now, just raisin' cows and livin' on borrowed time.

CIMMARONKID
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Post by CIMMARONKID » Wed Sep 05, 2007 5:33 pm

I found a Dan T. mini groove bullet that has 4 grease groves, not 5 and is shorter in lenght. Does anyone know anything about this shorter bullet? Also, are the Lyman molds even worth looking at or is the money better spent with Paul Jones? Last question, why do the spitzers not work? I am having a hard time switching mentality from smokeless jacketed to black powder cast. I really appreciate all the input.
"They couldn't hit an elephant at this distance" last words of Union General Sedgwick before a Confederate sniper killed him with a head shot.

RMulhern
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3 Best Bullets?

Post by RMulhern » Wed Sep 05, 2007 5:55 pm

CK

With this statement:

"I am having a hard time switching mentality from smokeless jacketed to black powder cast."

you've ALREADY gotten 90% of the battle won!!

Pay attention to these guys! Many....know what's going on! Spitzer bullets may be the COMING MIRACLE.....but many times what seems LOGICAL......AIN'T!! :shock: :lol:

Kelley O. Roos
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Post by Kelley O. Roos » Wed Sep 05, 2007 6:34 pm

OK, I read Dan's description, so what. A mile shooting bullet design is pure B.S..Want a bullet that will performe all the way to a mile, find the velocity your chosen bullet likes, no matter what twist barrel.

In my opinion, 2 things wrong with that bullet design, 1 is the taper & 2 the grease grooves. Use that same design with straight bore riding sides, .458 for a 45 cal.(no taper) & remove 2 grease grooves, then make the 4 remainder grooves wider by the 2 lost grease grooves, then make the grease grooves .0190 deep. How do I know this :?: Because I have that bullet in 44 cal. & 45 cal., runs outta lube at 30" for one & I've never ever gotten a tappered bullet to shoot in a 45 or 44 cal. barrel. If I'm running outta lube in the cool of the morning what would you think will happen when it's hotter :?:

I'm basing my opinions on that we're talking 45 cal. here & that's were my experiance lays.

Kelley O.

Arnie
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Post by Arnie » Wed Sep 05, 2007 7:21 pm

When slugging that Pedersoli barrel,be sure to only push the slug in from the chamber far enough to clear the chamber mouth .Do not push it all the way through the barrel or you will get an undersized slug. arnie

Hiwall
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Slugging

Post by Hiwall » Wed Sep 05, 2007 9:25 pm

Arnie are you suggesting that a Pedersoli may have a choke in the barrel. I would like to know how that can be done with a broached barrel.

JSU
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Post by JSU » Wed Sep 05, 2007 9:59 pm

If anyone offered an over the counter .45 cal version of the Lyman Snover, I would suggest a new shooter get that bullet and learn to shoot it and then, eventually, move to a custom bullet cut just for one's brass, chamber and barrel.

There isn't such a bullet of which I'm aware.

And the Lyman Snover isn't without fault either, besides the fact that it is limited to .40 cal. But it is, in my experience, the very best over the counter bullet for BPCR .40 cal rifles with a 16" twist barrel.

OK, now we know one bullet that isn't a consideration for the new .45 cal shooter.

So rather than suggest something like the Saeco 745 or the RCBS 500gr semi-spitzer or whatever, anyone in this game for more than a few years likely has a couple of molds sitting on a shelf that will never again be used because something else came along that produces superior results; I opted to suggest what could be a first and final bullet purchase.

The so called Wasserburger Mile bullet is no more than a .45 cal Micro-Mini-Groove. At least as it appears to me. This with the large meplat as opposed to Dan's very long nosed, smaller meplat, elliptical quasi-spitzers. I think the large meplat is a more general application concept than the Elliptical which may be more suited to long range use.

The more recent Dan Theodore designs, both the Mini-Groove and the Micro-Mini-Groove have shot very well for more than just a few people. Just maybe the Mini-Groove might be a little easier, initially, to get to shoot well, compared to the Micro-Mini-Groover. This is likely due to fewer driving bands with fewer steps of taper. But I believe that the Micro-Mini-Groover is an aerodynamically better design, that is: it is cleaner and thus will behave better, exhibiting less wind deflection, than its predecessor, the Mini-Groover.

Either of these bullets will shoot no better than a typical Lyman .45 whatever (postel, govt, etc) that is usually 2 to 3 thou out of round, if the custom bullet is not properly sized to the chamber and brass in which it will be shot. Proper bullet fit is essential for top accuracy.

And top accuracy is what we are about, isn't it? Is there anyone who strives for mediocrity?

With that said, there is the potential for a bit longer learning and development curve with the Micro-Mini-Groove bullet. But I believe that with a determined regimine of load development, careful note taking and this includes the willingness to experiment some to learn one's rifle and what it likes best, the Micro-Mini-Groove bullet will eventually provide consistently tighter groups than the MiniGroove concept.

Personally, last year I got a Mini-Groove and included it in a load based upon seating the bullet into the lands (0.050" works well in this rifle) and with about 0.070" of compression for a charge of Swiss 1 1/2, as well as staying with Fed 150M primers, an overprimer newsprint wad and a 0.060" ldpe wad. I also thumb seat a snugly fitting, but still slip fit neck tension and I have had good success with White Lightning dip process lube. This is the best shooting bullet I have yet found for this rifle.

Because of issues I have with the chamber of my old .40 cal silhouette rifle (it was .40-82 silhouette, it will eventually and soon I hope, be reincarnated as a .40-60 Maynard) I have not yet ordered a Micro-Mini-Groover. I am waiting to get the new barrel and chamber in hand and fire form some brass, neck turn it and then determine exactly what diameter I need for the largest diameter bands and base. But until I get the rifle in hand, I see no point in ordering the bullet.

I don't mail order shoes either, preferring to try them on in a store to guarantee a proper fit.

Hopefully this offers some understanding as to why I said what I did in my first post. This is only my opinion and the great thing about a board such as this is the free sharing of opinions. I think there are as many opinions as there are rifles. Just to mention one individual (who I do know), Kelley O prefers the concept of a bullet shank with consistent sized bands as opposed to tapered bands. That idea is the basis of the Lyman Snover and it is very successful. And it should be added that Kelley O has enjoyed more than a bit of success himself. However, that doesn't alter my personal belief in the superiority of the tapered bullet where the tapered bands help orient the bullet to the best centering in the bore. If one can consistently load fixed ammo with very little runout, this centering aid (tapered bands) may be of little or no benefit. But it should not be overlooked that there is a reason Schuetzen shooters breech seat their bullets, which usually are tapered band bullets. That so as to get them as centered in the bore as possible.

If you are still reading, maybe you understand now why I recommended as I did. Maybe you agree, maybe you don't. Groovey, or should it be Micro-Mini-Groovey? :lol:

--Steve
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montana_charlie
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Post by montana_charlie » Wed Sep 05, 2007 11:16 pm

Hiwall,
I 'lifted' this from a post by Dick Trenk on the MSN BPCR forum.

"The reputation for match grade accuracy which Pedersoli has earned world wide is not some sort of mystery.
The barrel bore hole is first drilled and reamed, than broached to near final dimensions. The bore hole is than honed to within .0002" tolerance of the desired specs.
Then the barrel is broach rifled using two 15 step broaches. The final set of cutters remove less than .0001" and leave a mirror finish on the grooves. The lands (bore hole) were not touched since they were previously honed to specs. During all this expensive machining and honing, the rifing was also given a very small taper from breach to muzzle so the moving bullet is always entering a tighter section of the rifling. This virtually eliminates gas blow-by, keeps bullet speed high and consistent and reduces leading and fouling caused by gas blowing by and getting in front of the bullet.
This same type of barrel can be obtained by careful lead lapping operations as was done by the old masters and some current custom barrel makers.
Pedersoli says.... "Our barrels are equal to or superior in accuracy to any other barrel being produced" today."
Retired...twice. Now, just raisin' cows and livin' on borrowed time.

choken
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Good Advice!!!!

Post by choken » Thu Sep 06, 2007 8:31 am

Kid, Don't worry about 3 moulds at present, just get a Paul Jones 45001 Creedmoor ! Tell Paul it is for your Browning. He will then cut it to about 0.4595" in diameter. I've got a bunch of moulds and this is the "one'" that is a must have! Mine is cut with all the drive bands the same perfectly round diameter. I recently got the "Money" bullet from Paul and have had good luck with it at 500+ yards. I drive it ALOT faster than the PJC! When I started the BPCR games a great friend gave me a simple piece of advice....he said "Get a Paul Jones mould and Steve Baldwin sights." I'll give you the same good advice!

deerhuntsheatmeup
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...

Post by deerhuntsheatmeup » Thu Sep 06, 2007 8:56 am

Well I'll be danged.

I am not alone. First of all. Kelley, I think the reason that the tapered bullets are not for beginners is because they may stick one inlube sizer, make a mess, wonder why it made a mess. Then they may try to cover all the grooves up and wind up with .500 of "jump". This will prolly lead to an inaccurate load.


Now that being said, I agree with you 100% about bullet choice. I have the same experience you do with tapered vs. straight sided bullets. The PJ C'moor mold you sent me years ago absolutely shoots to the point of aim in any BPCR rifle Ihave shot it in. I guad it with my life because Paul won't make me another like it. He say's "you won't be able to tell the difference" between the 1st gen and the current bullet.

Well, I hve shot the current designed C'moor's given to me by Lee Stone and guess what, they don't shoot as well as the bullets from the mold you got me started with.

Also, I believe that you are spot on in the amount of grease needed to not foul out. I have had the same experiences using WL and homemade lube. For my shooting, soft fouling and plenty of lube are a must. I really like blow tubing instead of wiping.

As for the comments regarding the Money bullet and velocity, they are correct in that it likes alot of velocity. I have not gotten the Money bullet to shoot well except using duplex. The reduced fouling may be the reason. But, they are incorrect regarding it's use in a 45-70. My shooting pardner has done quite well with the Money bullet in 45-70, even at long range.

Ken, the PJ and Baldwin comments are right on the money!

So, what does this mean? Nuthin'! Just another internet wannabehero giving his opinion about bullets!

So you guys have a great day! And keep makin' smoke!

Best, Barvid Dayfield

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