Home Defense and BPCR

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Coydog D.
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Post by Coydog D. » Sun Apr 01, 2007 8:29 am

SPG wroteCOLONGentlemen,
When you talk about intruders, I'm assuming you mean those belonging to the human species...for those I favor my Model '97 loaded with No. 6 shot. Remember, in this day and age you will be required to explain your actions. If it looks like you were having too much fun, things could go against you. Nobody walks away from 6's at 10 feet. If they are outside the house you better be real careful about any action you take.
Gute Ziele,

Steve
Steve,

The legal ramifications and perceptions are the reasons I choose the tools I do. I use similar equipment to that chosen by law enforcement. My ammunition is chosen the same way.

You're right, most people don't walk away from 6s at 10 ft. But, they can do some mischief before succumbing to wounds.

Unfortunately, in my house I have the potential for shots over 10 ft, my longest shot is a little over 35’. I use something that will be effective at the greatest distance in which I may have to take a shot. My chosen gun/load will keep all of its pellets on a silhouette target out to 21 meters reliably. In the SD/HD classes I've taken along with the training I've had for a PD and Army, 21 feet is considered a "keeper" for an armed assailant, in that at that distance an attacker has a good chance of reaching you before "the threat" can be neutralized. Now that is with a blunt object or edged weapon, a firearm is a whole new ball game and the distance is of course increased.

The only reliable way to stop a human attacker instantly is by hitting 3 locations, brain, brainstem, or central nervous system above the waist. Anything else and they can still pull a trigger until they bleed out. As you well know, animals can soak up a lot of punishment, I’ve killed elk that didn’t even register a hit and went a ways before going down, and how far have you had deer run after heart/lung shots? An animal running is one thing, a still functioning knucklehead hopped-up on drugs with loaded gun in my house is another. Everybody worries about over-penetration of his or her weapon, but the potential is for two (or more) people with guns. I know the fields of fire within my house, IE who’s bedroom is where, the other guy doesn’t care. I want that threat neutralized ASAP, so I use a tool that has the effect of hitting with eight 9mm rounds simultaneously. .

BTW in two tactical shotgun classes, the birdshot question arose and was not recommended. This is due to the lack of penetration. The FBI penetration tests call for 12” with handgun ammo, this takes into account outer clothing and shots at “bad angles’ IE through limbs etc. That's 12" regardless of distance. Autopsies are great, but they only take into account the ones that died.

http://greent.com/40Page/general/fbitest.htm

Here’s a decent article on shotgun wound ballistics from the Western Journal of Medicine of special note is page 155 which deals with mortality rates based on distance:

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/pagere ... dex=3#page


The bottom line is, we’ve all got to do our own risk assessment, I value penetration above the potential risk. If I can all help it, no intruder gets within 10 ft of me, period. I think that bird shot is highly effective when used to defend against attacking birds :mrgreen:

Chuck
"I do not think that word means what you think it means..."

SPG
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Post by SPG » Sun Apr 01, 2007 9:30 am

Coydog,
Good information, and it really makes sense. Thanks for that.

Our house has distances that seldom exceed 10 ft. and the distance from the "defendable perimeter" (bedroom that has phone and alternate escape route) to point of entry is 9 ft.

Your comments really make sense and I'm going to take them into consideration. I was advised years ago by several law enforcement people (whose opinions I valued) that if one looked like he was really hoping someone would break in so he could pull the trigger on his new combat "whatever", that it would not look good to a jury. I really agree with you on the distance question...10 ft is WAY too close, but inside our house that's about what it's going to be. For those reasons, shot placement is going to be critical and I realize that. This is why for me, a 12-gauge is really the only choice and I do practice with it.

The buckshot versus birdshot argument is similiar to the buckshot versus slugs argument that folks who run bear country engage in. For my money, on bears, buckshot is worthless past 20 ft. compared to the rifled slug. There are those who like the idea of a "pattern" making it easier to hit a bear...but if you are close enough for buckshot to be of any value a slug does the job much better. I've got some pratical experience in this regard. But I do hear you on the penetration thing...especially if it means that there is only one story being told when the dust settles.

Bottom line, I think, is just like hunting. You have to know your weapon, operation had better be second nature, shot placement is critical, and above all, you better be ready and able to pull the trigger. I've already made the decision on what in my house is worth a protracted session in court and what is not. Far better that a little thought is given to not making your residence look like an easy mark...and same thing goes in bear country.

I think too many guys think that by getting a combat-specific weapon that they are prepared for any eventuality...not giving any thought to what happens afterward, given that they even survive the encounter. One sentence that is a common denominator with every bear-mauling victim I have talked to were the words "it happened so fast...".

Gute Ziele,

Steve

Coydog D.
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Post by Coydog D. » Sun Apr 01, 2007 10:22 am

Steve,

It really is nice having an intelligent discussion on this subject Vs an argument, and all your points are valid. You’ve obviously based your decisions on your situation after some serious thought and that’s pretty much the best anyone can do.

I thought long and hard and read a bunch of material on the perceptions of using a “weapon” Vs a “firearm” for HD/SD. The concerns are valid I think and I’ve had this discussion with a couple CCW/Law enforcement instructors. Their thoughts are that if it’s a “good shoot” then the tool shouldn’t come into question. If it’s marginal, then yes the perception can come into play, but so will a whole lot of other stuff. I think you’ve also got to take into account you’re local area and political climate. So I put my old 97 in the safe and brought out the Benelli.

This discussion/argument has been hashed out on the Internet for quite some time. Unfortunately, I don’t think there’s any documentation either way of weapon choice determining the outcome of a trial.

My standpoint is that I use an unmodified weapon with ammunition in common use by law-enforcement. They use them because they’re the best “tool” to get the job done. In the basic sense, both LE and CIV HD are looking for the same endstate. It’s also the stuff I’ve trained with so there’s no transition, also some of the “evil” features do provide benefits when the weapon is employed. I draw the line a bayonets though, becasue they violate my 10ft rule. The only modification I do recommend is the addition of a mounted weapon light. It’s useful for target identification, a short duration blinding effect, and besides, it’s harder than chit to employ a long-gun while using a handheld flashlight.

As for your preparation thoughts, the aftereffects are bad, but the scariest thought is how many people keep firearms for HD/SD without any training, practice, or even having thought about how to secure them properly.

You're right about the "tactical" stuff. How’s that saying go, “It’s the Indian, not the arrow” or something like that.

Chuck

BTW, why are WY guys concerned with over-penetration? Last time I was in WY, there wasn't a whole bunch of stuff or people to over-penetrate to.
"I do not think that word means what you think it means..."

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OLReliable
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Post by OLReliable » Sun Apr 01, 2007 11:47 am

I think were're seeing the Coydog variant that reminds me of the post-lobotomy Randall Patrick McMurphy in One Flew Over The Cuckoo's Nest.

But what do I know :shock:

OLR

Kelley O. Roos
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Post by Kelley O. Roos » Sun Apr 01, 2007 11:54 am

OLreliable,

Yes ,and the ole-Coydog B and so on, managed to insult some here and they don't even know it. :shock:

Kelley O.

Coydog D.
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Post by Coydog D. » Sun Apr 01, 2007 11:57 am

OLReliable wroteCOLONI think were're seeing the Coydog variant that reminds me of the post-lobotomy Randall Patrick McMurphy in One Flew Over The Cuckoo's Nest.

But what do I know :shock:

OLR
Luckily, this maybe just a temporary phase, the last lobotomy I had was permanent.

Chuck

PS: That movie is about as old as you are!
"I do not think that word means what you think it means..."

Coydog D.
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Post by Coydog D. » Sun Apr 01, 2007 12:01 pm

Kelley O. Roos wroteCOLONOLreliable,

Yes ,and the ole-Coydog B and so on, managed to insult some here and they don't even know it. :shock:

Kelley O.
Kelley,

Trust me, when I insult someone, they know it.

Now, sometimes I'll admit it may have to sink in for a few days, and they'll be wondering; "Hmmm, did he really mean that the way I think he did...... I'm sort of not happy about what he said, but I can't quite put my finger on why.........."

Buuuuuuut, I have done none of that in this particular thread. So stop trying to stir up chit, you Internet ruffian!

This is a serious subject.

Chuck

AKA Coydog D+
The Newer Nicer One
"I do not think that word means what you think it means..."

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OLReliable
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Post by OLReliable » Sun Apr 01, 2007 12:29 pm

PS: That movie is about as old as you are!

OH YAAH !!?

OLR

Kelley O. Roos
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Post by Kelley O. Roos » Sun Apr 01, 2007 12:50 pm

Oh ya, Coydog D+,

:idea: What was that, "It really is nice having an intelligent discussion" remark :?: Hummmmmmmmm..

"This is a serious subject" :lol: Since when did you grow a serious side :?:

It's hard to give someone a lobotomy when they wear a helmet with tin foil wraped around it :shock:

Kelley O.

Ironramrod
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Post by Ironramrod » Sun Apr 01, 2007 2:21 pm

Coydog,

Do you have any data/info on the effectiveness of the larger sizes of steel shot (e.g. T or F sizes) in relation to this subject?

Regards

Coydog D.
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Post by Coydog D. » Mon Apr 02, 2007 11:29 am

Kelley,

That comment was actually meant as a compliment. I've seen this sort of topic on other boards degenerate pretty quickly.

So there......

Ironramrod,

Sorry, I've never seen anything on using large steel other than some guys posting that they use it. I suppose it will work just as well if not better than the smaller lead shot sizes due to the lower density/weight of steel, but the generally higher velocity.

Before I went the steel route, I'd probably get some of the Remington "heavy shot dead Coyote" stuff. It seems to be what your're looking for with the heavier density of lead+

The heavy shot I have used on geese and it's much improved over steel.

Chuck
"I do not think that word means what you think it means..."

Kelley O. Roos
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Post by Kelley O. Roos » Mon Apr 02, 2007 8:12 pm

Coydog D+,

That's it :?: A so there :!:

I am surprised,"degenerate" didn't happen here :shock: :lol: :lol: :lol: We have more class here :wink:

Kelley O.

crossfireoops
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Dust

Post by crossfireoops » Mon Apr 02, 2007 10:32 pm

For a 12 Ga. defence load, I'm kinda' intrigued with the Tungsten / Heavy Metal loads that are used for "entry".....blowin' hinges offa' doors, and lock plates outta' casements.

Haven't shot any, myself, but am given to underestand that it's a very powerful cup of brew.

Would venture to say that catchin' one or 2 of those in your gourd, ....at
"Home Defence" ranges, would just make for a poor kinda' day.

I'm a big fan of #4 buck.

Will remain so, probly.

On the Border, GTC 8)

Coydog D.
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Post by Coydog D. » Tue Apr 03, 2007 7:06 am

Here's some more data, to include use of bird shot. Keep in mind, the distance was 3 yards or 9 ft.

Even at that close distance the birdshot, although dramatic looking, didn't penetrate much past 9 inches. This is just ballistic gellatin, and doesn't take into account clothing or poor presentations.

http://www.tacticalshotgun.ca/ballistics_shotgun.html

Chuck
"I do not think that word means what you think it means..."

fender57vneck
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Post by fender57vneck » Wed Apr 25, 2007 8:42 pm

BPCR = Old Timer's assault rifles.

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